Wishy washy policing

[Nightmare Walking]

That's not the point I was making. You were suggesting "well they weren't doing any harm, were they". (Or else what were your comments about not seeing evidence for spikes in infection about?)

You are suggesting criminal prosecution and on the spot fines for what you have seen over the last few days, because people have broken the law. You had a massive rant about it. You can't even prove or have any evidence of people breaking the Covid laws.

I was advocating a more sensible and Pro active approach and gave reasons why I thought the approach you are advocating is way over the top.

 

[Nightmare Walking]

Sorry I missed that line.

View attachment 13497

How many people were fined for littering, do you reckon?

BTW, here's Leeds yesterday. All in groups of no more than 6, of course:

View attachment 13498

You prove they're not in groups of 6

 

[Chippy_boy]

You are suggesting criminal prosecution and on the spot fines for what you have seen over the last few days, because people have broken the law. You had a massive rant about it. You can't even prove or have any evidence of people breaking the Covid laws.

I was advocating a more sensible and Pro active approach and gave reasons why I thought the approach you are advocating is way over the top.

And as I said, it's about balance and IMO the balance is all wrong atm. You are clearly happier about the state of slovenliness and general lawlessness our country into which our country has descended, than I am. And BTW I was not suggesting criminal prosecutions for everyone, but for rather more than the typical nil who get such at the moment.

And why should we NOT have on the spot fines for most? Few can be unaware that littering is against the law, so once can only assume they simply don't give a toss. I would have thought a fixed-penalty is entirely appropriate.

 

[Chippy_boy]

You prove they're not in groups of 6

Oh give over, you're just being silly. No groups from more than 2 households???? I suggest you take another look before posting such nonsense again.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

You prove they're not in groups of 6

You might be onto something there mate, should be able to get 50000 into the Etihad 'in groups of 6' for the rest of the season ;-)

 

[Nightmare Walking]

Oh give over, you're just being silly. No groups from more than 2 households???? I suggest you take another look before posting such nonsense again.

View attachment 13503

The rule of 6 can be from any house hold, it is not restricted to 6 people from 2 house holds.

Now looking at the picture you have posted, which persons can you prove have broken any law? The people you can see at the back are all sat in little groups and entirely consistent with what I saw when on a walk yesterday. The people at the front, you have no idea what is going on.

Which people on that picture should be given a fine or subject criminal prosecution?

 

[Chippy_boy]

The rule of 6 can be from any house hold, it is not restricted to 6 people from 2 house holds.

I stand corrected.

Now looking at the picture you have posted, which persons can you prove have broken any law? The people you can see at the back are all sat in little groups and entirely consistent with what I saw when on a walk yesterday. The people at the front, you have no idea what is going on.

Which people on that picture should be given a fine or subject criminal prosecution?

I wasn't there. I imagine if I was, it would have been rather easier to spot. But honestly I have no idea why you are trying to defend what is obviously indefensible with this "perhaps they were in groups of no more than 6" nonsense? OBVIOUSLY they aren't all following the rules so whereas you've made reasonable points, your clinging on to this one just makes you look daft.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

The rule of 6 can be from any house hold, it is not restricted to 6 people from 2 house holds.

Now looking at the picture you have posted, which persons can you prove have broken any law? The people you can see at the back are all sat in little groups and entirely consistent with what I saw when on a walk yesterday. The people at the front, you have no idea what is going on.

Which people on that picture should be given a fine or subject criminal prosecution?

I've lost track of the rules tbh, is distancing still a thing (2m)?

 

[Chippy_boy]

I've lost track of the rules tbh, is distancing still a thing (2m)?

Yes.

 

[Nightmare Walking]

I stand corrected.

I wasn't there. I imagine if I was, it would have been rather easier to spot. But honestly I have no idea why you are trying to defend what is obviously indefensible with this "perhaps they were in groups of no more than 6" nonsense? OBVIOUSLY they aren't all following the rules so whereas you've made reasonable points, your clinging on to this one just makes you look daft.

You don't even know the rules yourself mate, yet you have got on your high horse. You are accusing people of breaking rules and jumping to conclusions. You can't prove anyone has done anything wrong, so how can you fine or prosecute them?

I am not defending anyone. I have more to lose than most with Covid as it would kill me. I have no immune system and would be in big trouble if I got it. But I have tried to be realistic and think a common sense approach would be far better than the approach you are advocating.

Look at the picture you have posted, there are hundreds of people there. If the police rushed in and started giving out fines and arresting people, it would cause more trouble. The police would be better served walking round, keeping order and reminding people of their responsibilities. If anyone got out of hand, then respond. It's common sense, it's Pro active and the vast majority would welcome such tactics.

It is physically impossible to prove any of those people in the picture have broken any laws. You can come to your own conclusions, but guessing will not wash in a court of law. You can't prosecute someone or give them a fine, just because you think, you have to prove it. Say the police went round every person in that crowd and issued every single one, an in the spot fine. What if every person refused to pay it and decided they would fight it in court? They then go to court and say we are not paying it as we were in a group of 6, this is our group of 6 and we did nothing wrong. It can not be proven otherwise. So you fill up the courts pointlessly and it costs ridiculous amounts of money.

I am not defending anyone, I am being realistic. You initial rant was way over the top and your proposals would cause far more problems than they would solve.

 

[dave_blue12]

I refer you to my post at the bottom of page 2.

Okay so you understand the situation.

So perhaps you should be attacking the politicians who have brought this situation about ? Not the police who cannot fucking win whatever they do.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

You don't even know the rules yourself mate, yet you have got on your high horse. You are accusing people of breaking rules and jumping to conclusions. You can't prove anyone has done anything wrong, so how can you fine or prosecute them?

I am not defending anyone. I have more to lose than most with Covid as it would kill me. I have no immune system and would be in big trouble if I got it. But I have tried to be realistic and think a common sense approach would be far better than the approach you are advocating.

Look at the picture you have posted, there are hundreds of people there. If the police rushed in and started giving out fines and arresting people, it would cause more trouble. The police would be better served walking round, keeping order and reminding people of their responsibilities. If anyone got out of hand, then respond. It's common sense, it's Pro active and the vast majority would welcome such tactics.

It is physically impossible to prove any of those people in the picture have broken any laws. You can come to your own conclusions, but guessing will not wash in a court of law. You can't prosecute someone or give them a fine, just because you think, you have to prove it. Say the police went round every person in that crowd and issued every single one, an in the spot fine. What if every person refused to pay it and decided they would fight it in court? They then go to court and say we are not paying it as we were in a group of 6, this is our group of 6 and we did nothing wrong. It can not be proven otherwise. So you fill up the courts pointlessly and it costs ridiculous amounts of money.

I am not defending anyone, I am being realistic. You initial rant was way over the top and your proposals would cause far more problems than they would solve.

I suppose a compromise would be to accept that we can't prove there is any law breaking here, but to then turn on the water- cannons just to cool the law abiding citizens down, not to disperse them?

 

[Nightmare Walking]

I suppose a compromise would be to accept that we can't prove there is any law breaking here, but to then turn on the water- cannons just to cool the law abiding citizens down, not to disperse them?

Well it was hot yesterday, I am sure the public would appreciate such a kind gesture by the authorities.

 

[Chippy_boy]

You don't even know the rules yourself mate, yet you have got on your high horse. You are accusing people of breaking rules and jumping to conclusions. You can't prove anyone has done anything wrong, so how can you fine or prosecute them?

I am not defending anyone. I have more to lose than most with Covid as it would kill me. I have no immune system and would be in big trouble if I got it. But I have tried to be realistic and think a common sense approach would be far better than the approach you are advocating.

Look at the picture you have posted, there are hundreds of people there. If the police rushed in and started giving out fines and arresting people, it would cause more trouble. The police would be better served walking round, keeping order and reminding people of their responsibilities. If anyone got out of hand, then respond. It's common sense, it's Pro active and the vast majority would welcome such tactics.

It is physically impossible to prove any of those people in the picture have broken any laws. You can come to your own conclusions, but guessing will not wash in a court of law. You can't prosecute someone or give them a fine, just because you think, you have to prove it. Say the police went round every person in that crowd and issued every single one, an in the spot fine. What if every person refused to pay it and decided they would fight it in court? They then go to court and say we are not paying it as we were in a group of 6, this is our group of 6 and we did nothing wrong. It can not be proven otherwise. So you fill up the courts pointlessly and it costs ridiculous amounts of money.

I am not defending anyone, I am being realistic. You initial rant was way over the top and your proposals would cause far more problems than they would solve.

You've made your point repeatedly. I disagree with you, I think you're wrong. It happens.

And it's not for you or me, looking at pictures, to prove anything. It's for the police, who should have been there on the spot, to hand out spot fines.

That you or I, looking at a static picture cannot prove anything has FUCK ALL to do with it. The only thing the picture proves is that you are an idiot trying to suggest that it was all within the legal limits.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Okay so you understand the situation.

So perhaps you should be attacking the politicians who have brought this situation about ? Not the police who cannot fucking win whatever they do.

I wasn't "attacking" the police. I support the police enormously. I wish they would be more emboldened, that is all. But yes, happy to include the politicians in my criticisms, absolutely.

 

[Nightmare Walking]

You've made your point repeatedly. I disagree with you, I think you're wrong. It happens.

And it's not for you or me, looking at pictures, to prove anything. It's for the police, who should have been there on the spot, to hand out spot fines.

That you or I, looking at a static picture cannot prove anything has FUCK ALL to do with it. The only thing the picture proves is that you are an idiot trying to suggest that it was all within the legal limits.

You don't even know the rules, but are accusing people of breaking them. Not quite sure how you can then accuse me of being an idiot.

It is easy to get on a pedestal and start spouting nonsense, which is what you have done. What you are advocating is unreasonable, impractical and impossible to police in the real world.

If it makes you feel better having a rant, then fill your boots.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Not quite sure how you can then accuse me of being an idiot.

Easy, I've seen the pictures and what you wrote. QED.

BTW, did you actually READ my opening post? It would appear you did not.

Is it "unreasonable" for the police to state what the law is, rather than to "ask for people to be supportive"?

Is it "Impractical" for the police to say that people breaking the law may face prosecution?

Is it "impossible" for the police to issue more fines than the typical none which get dished out at present?.

EDIT: Never mind, who cares what you think.

 

[BobKowalski]

Not sure where this rant belongs so I am starting a thread.

I am sick and tired of the wishy-washy claptrap coming out of the mouths of our senior police officers in the face of blatant and flagrant law-breaking. Every time we here phrases such as "We urge the public to act responsibly", "Ask people to follow the guidelines" or "We're impressed at how the public have worked with us during this pandemic". Urge? Ask? Worked with??? WTF are they talking about.

Like most of you I am sure, I am tired of the COVID-19 restrictions and the impact its had upon our daily lives. I yearn for a return to the pub, to meeting friends, to holiday, to footy games. But also like most of you, I have followed the rules because I understand its important, not just for my safety but so that I don't inadvertently and unknowingly infect and possibly kill someone else.

So it absolutely makes my blood boils when I see people who don't give a toss, just doing what they like and breaking the rules. Not only is this a 2-finger salute to the rest of us, it increases spread of infection, raises the risks of new variants, prolongs the duration of disruption to all of our lives. It is in short, cuntish behaviour.

The response to such cuntish behaviour should not be "We ask members of the public to act responsibly". It should be "We require", or "We instruct", "We mandate". And not "Follow guidelines" either. "Obey the law".

I'd like to see Chief Constables making it very clear that their forces REQUIRE people to OBEY THE LAW or face arrest and criminal prosecution. Not this "work with us" bollocks. For FAR too many people in this country, the law seems to be a loose set of guidelines to be followed or ignored as you wish, without any consequence. This has to change. Not just with respect to COVID, but generally. We've slumped to dismal level of lack of respect, lack of personal responsibility and we need to get back some semblence of common decency, so we are not leaving tons of litter in parks for example. We need to start spelling out the RULES clearly and start enforcing them more rigorously. No more of this "Have a word" and "educate" bullshit. We need arrests, fines and punishments. And many, many, many more of them. The twats need to begin to realise that the law is not an optional thing they can ignore with impunity.

Firstly, we are policed ‘by consent’ ie ‘the power of the police coming from the common consent of the public, as opposed to the power of the state.’

Secondly, the current UK Govt does not have the police manpower to enforce the ‘power of the state’ even if they, like yourself, would rather they could do this and beat the living shit out of people they do not like.

Thirdly, seriously, move to Hong Kong, you’ll like the police there, and take Patel with you, she’ll be happier than a pig in shit.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Firstly, we are policed ‘by consent’ ie ‘the power of the police coming from the common consent of the public, as opposed to the power of the state.’

Secondly, the current UK Govt does not have the police manpower to enforce the ‘power of the state’ even if they, like yourself, would rather they could do this and beat the living shit out of people they do not like.

Thirdly, seriously, move to Hong Kong, you’ll like the police there, and take Patel with you, she’ll be happier than a pig in shit.

I feel your first two paragraphs are excellent points, I think the third was a little rude and suggests you may be 'a bit of a ****' - and not in a good way like myself.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Fair enough. Get them in the firing line as well.

We clearly value personal freedoms greatly in this country, which is admirable. But with personal freedom comes responsibility and if people refuse to act responsibly, then the personal freedoms need to be reigned in until they do. We've become far, far too soft for fear of offending possible voters.

Dead right! Too many decisions taken on the basis of how many votes it delivers.