Afghanistan

bluethrunthru said:
Lol - a statement that was always countered with " thats why Germany's first language is English " ha ha ha
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Which is stupid because it assumes the aim of the victorious allies would be the same as the victorious Germans. We weren't an authoritarian regime interested in subjugation the countries we occupied.

Without going further down that rabbit hole the fact remains without air support Dunkirk would have been the end of the war, and our pulling air support from the Afghans has had a similar effect.
 
bluethrunthru said:
Dunno how old you are Fumble but my Grandma's were both adults in the war. One lost her husband as a PoW for 6 years the other was in the Western Desert and Italy - both lost father in WW1 and both hated everything German - my Dad's mum never even distinguished between West and East Germany - they would have resisted.
There was also a secret resistance army ( see below ) and when I lived on the South Coast I recall seeing a documentary where they recruited folk like game keepers and land workers and the like. The minute the "balloon went up" they would walk out of their houses and go to the places in the link below regardless of the fate of their family - they had a couple on and because he had signed the OSA he had never told her the plan was to abandon her and the kids to resist and she dropped the bombshell that she had never told him for the same reason - she had been recruited as a radio operator so she would have been transmitting about enemy movements until she would have been found out and shot.
I think France Belgium and Holland fell too quickly plus there was a lack of leadership from their governments resulting in mass columns of refugee's and fear in the general populace. The fact we had the channel as a barrier meant the Govt could galvanise the public mood and there was a sense of purpose about what could be achieved.
I remember my Grandad telling me that as a Lancashire Fusilier and part of the BEF they marched all the way to the Albert Canal in Belgium which was seen as a barrier to thwart the Germans. Nobody thought to blow bridges and the Germans had boats so they got told to lob Bren Guns, Vickers guns and mortars in the canal and head for Dunkirk! Even then they knew the rate things were happening the channel was their barrier.
Different times different people.

historicengland.org.uk

If Germany Had Invaded England in the Second World War, Who Would Have Fought Back? | Historic England

Winston Churchill ordered preparations to be made for a secret resistance force to report on and agitate against any invasion force that might arrive.
historicengland.org.uk historicengland.org.uk

www.smithsonianmag.com

WWII Bunker Used by Churchill's 'Secret Army' Unearthed in Scotland

British Auxiliary Units were trained to sabotage the enemy in case of German invasion
www.smithsonianmag.com www.smithsonianmag.com
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Yes we did have time on our side and the Channel, and yes we did train a secret army to go underground and resist the occupation.

We know these things because the history books tell us, but we were never occupied and ultimately won the war, so we can only speculate how things would've worked out under Nazi rule, all we can go on is what happened in occupied Europe.

We'd have had our traitors, collaborators and quislings for sure, of that there can be no doubt, Hitler had his admirers in the British establishment. Our resistance, better trained and equipped than on the continent, though small in number, would've made life very hard for the Germans. But the mass of the population would've complied, because to believe otherwise, in the face of all the evidence of what happened on the continent, is to fall prey to the plucky island race myths surrounding the Second World War and even worse the myth of British exceptionalism.
 
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Some patterns emerging, plus reports of resistance from anti-Taliban groups.

- Talibs don’t really have full control over groups at check points, which themselves are a patchwork of different groups of Talibs from the surrounding provinces.

-They didn’t expect to win this quickly and they have no movement-wide agreement on how to proceed. Big disagreements about power, factions and government.

-The Helmandis want female education shut down but the Haqqanis, Wardakis & Logaris insist on keeping them.

Fair to say that the takeover was the easy bit, but absent a common enemy fractionalism will quickly appear. Where it all ends, who knows.
 
BobKowalski said:
Some patterns emerging, plus reports of resistance from anti-Taliban groups.

- Talibs don’t really have full control over groups at check points, which themselves are a patchwork of different groups of Talibs from the surrounding provinces.

-They didn’t expect to win this quickly and they have no movement-wide agreement on how to proceed. Big disagreements about power, factions and government.

-The Helmandis want female education shut down but the Haqqanis, Wardakis & Logaris insist on keeping them.

Fair to say that the takeover was the easy bit, but absent a common enemy fractionalism will quickly appear. Where it all ends, who knows.
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Back to the natural order of things I suppose. Tribal conflict and Sharia law :-(
 
BobKowalski said:
In no particular order. Poor and corrupt leadership. The Taliban striking deals with factions across the country during the ceasefire/peace deal. The US Govt sidelining the Afghan Govt during the peace negotions thereby sending out the message the Taliban were the only game in time. The peace deal for many was the ‘end’ and after that everyone was looking out for themselves. No affinity for the Govt they were ostensibly fighting for.

The Govt and military only looked good on paper, the surprise was they collapsed in days not weeks, but no one was surprised they collapsed.

Also, Afghan forces lost around 60k men in the conflict. I guess the rest looking at the shitshow around them decided they didn’t fancy being added to the list and for what? A president who legged it out of Afghanistan with a hundred million dollars.

It's not dissimilar to the South Vietnamese army that was ‘left’ to ‘defend’ the country. You can equip them all you like, but unless you have a sense of purpose, a belief in what you are fighting for, you are going to lose.
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Alot of good points Bob, but ultinmately your last sentance sums the Afghan armed forces up. No belief. They just couldnt be bothered to fight for their freedom against oppression and utimately they only have themselves to blame for what has befallen on them.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
Alot of good points Bob, but ultinmately your last sentance sums the Afghan armed forces up. No belief. They just couldnt be bothered to fight for their freedom against oppression and utimately they only have themselves to blame for what has befallen on them.
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Bit simplistic.

They were the army of a nation state that barely anyone had any loyalty towards.
Their loyalties were predominantly to their own tribes and many were in the army just for the money. They were just not interested in defending a regime that meant little to them. In the meantime the Taliban made deals with most of the tribal leaders.

Every US President has fucked up with Biden reaping the blowback from Trump’s surrender to the Taliban last year. GWB the biggest culprit for not having a plan for what to do after the defeat of the Taliban in 2001.
 
west didsblue said:
Bit simplistic.

They were the army of a nation state that barely anyone had any loyalty towards.
Their loyalties were predominantly to their own tribes and many were in the army just for the money. They were just not interested in defending a regime that meant little to them. In the meantime the Taliban made deals with most of the tribal leaders.

Every US President has fucked up with Biden reaping the blowback from Trump’s surrender to the Taliban last year. GWB the biggest culprit for not having a plan for what to do after the defeat of the Taliban in 2001.
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would you fight or defend your family against oppression. i know which i would choose.
 
BobKowalski said:
Some patterns emerging, plus reports of resistance from anti-Taliban groups.

- Talibs don’t really have full control over groups at check points, which themselves are a patchwork of different groups of Talibs from the surrounding provinces.

-They didn’t expect to win this quickly and they have no movement-wide agreement on how to proceed. Big disagreements about power, factions and government.

-The Helmandis want female education shut down but the Haqqanis, Wardakis & Logaris insist on keeping them.

Fair to say that the takeover was the easy bit, but absent a common enemy fractionalism will quickly appear. Where it all ends, who knows.
Click to expand...
It will never end. War forevermore in Afghanistan.
 
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