Keir Starmer

[Jasonrobards83]

Todays contribution from the Daily Mail who are now concerned Johnson and the Tory party may lose the next election.

Everything possible will be done to drag Labour rightwards, why? because the further right Labour go the less threat they are to the owners of capital, they just become a less Tory version of the current Tory party which given how far to the right the current Tory party are, it will mean Labour occupy ground to the right of centre and anything to the left of centre is further into the wilderness.

Large swathes of the electorate become unrepresented as the choice becomes a party of the right, a party of the further right and a party of the far right. That in effect makes the centre ground of UK politics the further right. The relentless move towards right wing politics continues apace and leftism disappears from the political discourse. The free market rules unopposed, the NHS is sold off, the introspection of natural Conservatism becomes the norm and the nation becomes a regressive hell hole of serfdom, poverty and exploitation. Its back to the dark ages, rights for by the working class fought for, for generations will disappear and the owners of capital will sit in their ivory towers laughing their fucking heads off at how gullible the British people have turned out to be.

Yes - that makes lots of sense actually.

Can I just say one thing though that I know people will come at me over: the NHS is outdated and something else needs to be put in place... I say this for a couple of reasons: i) the long ages people live to these days in Britain and ii) the wealth gap between large swathes of the population.

I was thinking about this recently as I watched a Channel 4 Dispatches show on how Pfizer Biontec has been taking the piss (profiteering) with its covid jab (and boosters). I was actually not that bothered about the main thrust of the argument: company invents something that everyone wants, makes billions selling it around the world, shock horror!

The thing that interested me was the £2.3 billion the NHS had paid them, because when I went for my booster recently, I was in and out and my debit card stayed firmly in my pocket. I could afford the £25-£30 quid cost and would have gladly paid it, so how come its free?

Why not say anyone earning over x amount a year has to pay for the booster, or indeed other common medical treatments (probably via some sort of insurance system), whilst those on UC or below a certain pay threshold get free healthcare?

I'm not particularly well-off by-the-way, but it just seems crazy to me that this NHS mantra of 'free at the point of delivery' continues in current times - it was necessary (and wonderful) in 1947 but much time has now passed. The thing is no party dare step up and say this, because they know it would be electoral suicide (as Theresa May found out when she tried to reform the care system and botched the communication of that, a few years ago) so they will end up tinkering with the system or reforming it stealthily, when really we all need to face up to reality. In 1947 a person would retire at 60/65 and then likely live another ten to fifteen years. Nowadays, even though national retirement is slightly older most of us reading this will live well into our 80s and 90s - the NHS just can't handle that whilst staying true to its laudable original ideals.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Todays contribution from the Daily Mail who are now concerned Johnson and the Tory party may lose the next election.

Everything possible will be done to drag Labour rightwards, why? because the further right Labour go the less threat they are to the owners of capital, they just become a less Tory version of the current Tory party which given how far to the right the current Tory party are, it will mean Labour occupy ground to the right of centre and anything to the left of centre is further into the wilderness.

Large swathes of the electorate become unrepresented as the choice becomes a party of the right, a party of the further right and a party of the far right. That in effect makes the centre ground of UK politics the further right. The relentless move towards right wing politics continues apace and leftism disappears from the political discourse. The free market rules unopposed, the NHS is sold off, the introspection of natural Conservatism becomes the norm and the nation becomes a regressive hell hole of serfdom, poverty and exploitation. Its back to the dark ages, rights for by the working class fought for, for generations will disappear and the owners of capital will sit in their ivory towers laughing their fucking heads off at how gullible the British people have turned out to be.

Looking at the current political climate, how do you suggest we bring it back to the left?

 

[Vic]

Yes - that makes lots of sense actually.

Can I just say one thing though that I know people will come at me over: the NHS is outdated and something else needs to be put in place... I say this for a couple of reasons: i) the long ages people live to these days in Britain and ii) the wealth gap between large swathes of the population.

I was thinking about this recently as I watched a Channel 4 Dispatches show on how Pfizer Biontec has been taking the piss (profiteering) with its covid jab (and boosters). I was actually not that bothered about the main thrust of the argument: company invents something that everyone wants, makes billions selling it around the world, shock horror!

The thing that interested me was the £2.3 billion the NHS had paid them, because when I went for my booster recently, I was in and out and my debit card stayed firmly in my pocket. I could afford the £25-£30 quid cost and would have gladly paid it, so how come its free?

Why not say anyone earning over x amount a year has to pay for the booster, or indeed other common medical treatments (probably via some sort of insurance system), whilst those on UC or below a certain pay threshold get free healthcare?

I'm not particularly well-off by-the-way, but it just seems crazy to me that this NHS mantra of 'free at the point of delivery' continues in current times - it was necessary (and wonderful) in 1947 but much time has now passed. The thing is no party dare step up and say this, because they know it would be electoral suicide (as Theresa May found out when she tried to reform the care system and botched the communication of that, a few years ago) so they will end up tinkering with the system or reforming it stealthily, when really we all need to face up to reality. In 1947 a person would retire at 60/65 and then likely live another ten to fifteen years. Nowadays, even though national retirement is slightly older most of us reading this will live well into our 80s and 90s - the NHS just can't handle that whilst staying true to its laudable original ideals.

It's got to be paid for somehow. It's called tax.

Now if you want to pay for your own nuclear weapons, I'd support that.

But look at your (i). Essentially, you think the NHS has a problem in that everyone is living longer. Why is everyone living longer? Because of the NHS...

 

[Vic]

I love how raynor is being framed as strongly left wing (she isn't) and her regionilism is being the target of the attacks.

We are subliminary tought that well spoken, neutral accented, privately educated people will do whats best for us, and anyone who makes noise in a regional tone is unqualified and a danger.

Och, that'd be why MacGove no longer sounds like this...

 

[Jasonrobards83]

It's got to be paid for somehow. It's called tax.

Now if you want to pay for your own nuclear weapons, I'd support that.

But look at your (i). Essentially, you think the NHS has a problem in that everyone is living longer. Why is everyone living longer? Because of the NHS...

There is a bit more to it than that though. Look at motoring: cars have grown in numbers, but have become steadily safer over time, not least with mandatory seatbelts first in the front and then in the back. 'Clunk-click every trip' for older viewers. Then we have the decline and almost extinction of smoking and I see an increase in abstinence from alcohol too, amongst more and more (younger) people. What about Health and Safety? Compare a building site in 1950 and one now and it would be almost chalk and cheese...

New technological advancements both in equipment and in medicine are also factors. Recently a vaccine for malaria was approved for the first time, it was invented by GlaxoSmithKline, not the NHS. I could go on.

No - to just say the ageing population is a result of the NHS is overly simplistic and to back that up, you only have to look at other developed nations e.g. the US which has similar demographic issues, but no universal free health care.

P.S. What I was talking about already exists in part anyway, when I need some medicine its £9+ for my prescription, whilst my friend (on PIP) pays nothing - which is just aswell as she takes about 5 different tablets a day and cannot work. I just think we need to look further into this and people need to stop treating the NHS as some sacred institution that can't be reformed, it is outdated. Furthermore, there are far to many middle-managers and not enough actual nurses and Drs, so some sort of reset might deal with that, too.

 

[hilts]

Yes - that makes lots of sense actually.

Can I just say one thing though that I know people will come at me over: the NHS is outdated and something else needs to be put in place... I say this for a couple of reasons: i) the long ages people live to these days in Britain and ii) the wealth gap between large swathes of the population.

I was thinking about this recently as I watched a Channel 4 Dispatches show on how Pfizer Biontec has been taking the piss (profiteering) with its covid jab (and boosters). I was actually not that bothered about the main thrust of the argument: company invents something that everyone wants, makes billions selling it around the world, shock horror!

The thing that interested me was the £2.3 billion the NHS had paid them, because when I went for my booster recently, I was in and out and my debit card stayed firmly in my pocket. I could afford the £25-£30 quid cost and would have gladly paid it, so how come its free?

Why not say anyone earning over x amount a year has to pay for the booster, or indeed other common medical treatments (probably via some sort of insurance system), whilst those on UC or below a certain pay threshold get free healthcare?

I'm not particularly well-off by-the-way, but it just seems crazy to me that this NHS mantra of 'free at the point of delivery' continues in current times - it was necessary (and wonderful) in 1947 but much time has now passed. The thing is no party dare step up and say this, because they know it would be electoral suicide (as Theresa May found out when she tried to reform the care system and botched the communication of that, a few years ago) so they will end up tinkering with the system or reforming it stealthily, when really we all need to face up to reality. In 1947 a person would retire at 60/65 and then likely live another ten to fifteen years. Nowadays, even though national retirement is slightly older most of us reading this will live well into our 80s and 90s - the NHS just can't handle that whilst staying true to its laudable original ideals.

It’s not free

 

[BlueHammer85]

The thing that interested me was the £2.3 billion the NHS had paid them, because when I went for my booster recently, I was in and out and my debit card stayed firmly in my pocket. I could afford the £25-£30 quid cost and would have gladly paid it, so how come its free?

Why not say anyone earning over x amount a year has to pay for the booster, or indeed other common medical treatments (probably via some sort of insurance system), whilst those on UC or below a certain pay threshold get free healthcare?

It’s not free, it’s taxpayers that fund the NHS and the wealthiest contribute more , also charging people to take the vaccine will result in Far less people having it - resulting in more burden for the NHS

 

[domalino]

The thing that interested me was the £2.3 billion the NHS had paid them, because when I went for my booster recently, I was in and out and my debit card stayed firmly in my pocket. I could afford the £25-£30 quid cost and would have gladly paid it, so how come its free?

Do you have a job?

Because if you did, you paid for it through you (and your employers) National Insurance contribution.

The NHS is free at the point of use. Not free.

 

[bluethrunthru]

The thing that interested me was the £2.3 billion the NHS had paid them, because when I went for my booster recently, I was in and out and my debit card stayed firmly in my pocket. I could afford the £25-£30 quid cost and would have gladly paid it, so how come its free?

Good for you - problem is this is a massive public health emergency. There are already bellends who won't take up a free vaccination program. If you ask people to pay for something that through taxes they are already perceived to be paying for the vaccination rates will tumble the NHS could be overwhelmed and £2.3bn could end up looking like a bargain.

If we are going to start charging - start with GP and other health visits - not for the appointment but for FAILING to attend an appointment they requested? My experience of the alleged f2f GP drought is that me and my family have had no issues and I am sure the r/w press are amping it up to rile the base to get angry over shit that isn't the govt's fuck ups however I am sure charging/fining folk for a no-show with no valid excuse is a start. A lot of people probably can't get a GP appointment because people book what is in effect 20 mins of a GP's day and then don't bother to turn up and don't bother to alert the surgery they aren't coming.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Good for you - problem is this is a massive public health emergency. There are already bellends who won't take up a free vaccination program. If you ask people to pay for something that through taxes they are already perceived to be paying for the vaccination rates will tumble the NHS could be overwhelmed and £2.3bn could end up looking like a bargain.

If we are going to start charging - start with GP and other health visits - not for the appointment but for FAILING to attend an appointment they requested? My experience of the alleged f2f GP drought is that me and my family have had no issues and I am sure the r/w press are amping it up to rile the base to get angry over shit that isn't the govt's fuck ups however I am sure charging/fining folk for a no-show with no valid excuse is a start. A lot of people probably can't get a GP appointment because people book what is in effect 20 mins of a GP's day and then don't bother to turn up and don't bother to alert the surgery they aren't coming.

Ric’s decision to introduce a Farage-bot is an intriguing one.

 

[pirate]

Yes - that makes lots of sense actually.

Can I just say one thing though that I know people will come at me over: the NHS is outdated and something else needs to be put in place... I say this for a couple of reasons: i) the long ages people live to these days in Britain and ii) the wealth gap between large swathes of the population.

I was thinking about this recently as I watched a Channel 4 Dispatches show on how Pfizer Biontec has been taking the piss (profiteering) with its covid jab (and boosters). I was actually not that bothered about the main thrust of the argument: company invents something that everyone wants, makes billions selling it around the world, shock horror!

The thing that interested me was the £2.3 billion the NHS had paid them, because when I went for my booster recently, I was in and out and my debit card stayed firmly in my pocket. I could afford the £25-£30 quid cost and would have gladly paid it, so how come its free?

Why not say anyone earning over x amount a year has to pay for the booster, or indeed other common medical treatments (probably via some sort of insurance system), whilst those on UC or below a certain pay threshold get free healthcare?

I'm not particularly well-off by-the-way, but it just seems crazy to me that this NHS mantra of 'free at the point of delivery' continues in current times - it was necessary (and wonderful) in 1947 but much time has now passed. The thing is no party dare step up and say this, because they know it would be electoral suicide (as Theresa May found out when she tried to reform the care system and botched the communication of that, a few years ago) so they will end up tinkering with the system or reforming it stealthily, when really we all need to face up to reality. In 1947 a person would retire at 60/65 and then likely live another ten to fifteen years. Nowadays, even though national retirement is slightly older most of us reading this will live well into our 80s and 90s - the NHS just can't handle that whilst staying true to its laudable original ideals.

wouldn't it just be easier with less admin costs to put up income tax for people earning over x amount a year and put the money into the nhs?

 

[bluethrunthru]

wouldn't it just be easier with less admin costs to put up income tax for people earning over x amount a year and put the money into the nhs?

whhhhaaaaatttttt ? How very dare you ( clutches pearls ) expect wealthy people to help poorer people ......... thats communism...............Joseph Rowntree and Johns Cadbury will be spinning in their graves.....

 

[Rascal]

Looking at the current political climate, how do you suggest we bring it back to the left?

That is a great question.

When ever in this era politics moves leftwards its met with a barrage of RW propaganda and defamation.

Ed MilIiband's dad was charcterised as a man who hated this country FFS, a Jewish fella who served in the Navy against the fascist threats of WW2

Ralph Miliband bless him, is categorised as a Marxist, as where many of the leftist intellectuals of that era. They were not Marxist per se, they interpreted Marx in what Peterson (fruitcake) says is post modernism.

A critic of Peterson wrote

“Postmodernism is frequently referred to derogatorily, as if it is a kind of bad philosophy. But this accusation is not only vague—it makes an is/ought error: The postmodern theorists were mainly concerned with describing the current condition of the world, not telling people how to act.

The Left has to fight back against these ridiculous culture wars to start with, because its not the left who are responsible, its the liberal intelligensia (pro EU) who have enabled the RW domination of our politics.

Since WW2 there was a social consensus that pervaded in this country that there should be healthcare for free at the point of use and a social safety net for those who were unfortunate of circumstance. This hass been eroded since Reagan became President of the USA and Thatcher licked his arse and told her acolytes to read the flawed reasoning of Hayek and the Frankfurt/Chicago schools of Economics.

Where does the Left go, in my opinion we do not go rightwards, a few sops to the working class is not enough, a minimum wage is laughable and brexit has to be embraced, not fought against.

The Left is now seen as unpatriotic, but its the grandfathers of the left who did their patriotic duty and saved us from Fascism. It was the brave young lads who joined the International Brigade in Spain who fought fascism.

The left must always be Anti Fascist, it must always be anti authoritarian and must always work for the best interests of the working class.

 

[Craig]

Watching him on the Andrew Marr show. Absolutely loved the fence doesn’t he the Sir!

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

That is a great question.

When ever in this era politics moves leftwards its met with a barrage of RW propaganda and defamation.

Ed MilIiband's dad was charcterised as a man who hated this country FFS, a Jewish fella who served in the Navy against the fascist threats of WW2

Ralph Miliband bless him, is categorised as a Marxist, as where many of the leftist intellectuals of that era. They were not Marxist per se, they interpreted Marx in what Peterson (fruitcake) says is post modernism.

A critic of Peterson wrote

“Postmodernism is frequently referred to derogatorily, as if it is a kind of bad philosophy. But this accusation is not only vague—it makes an is/ought error: The postmodern theorists were mainly concerned with describing the current condition of the world, not telling people how to act.

The Left has to fight back against these ridiculous culture wars to start with, because its not the left who are responsible, its the liberal intelligensia (pro EU) who have enabled the RW domination of our politics.

Since WW2 there was a social consensus that pervaded in this country that there should be healthcare for free at the point of use and a social safety net for those who were unfortunate of circumstance. This hass been eroded since Reagan became President of the USA and Thatcher licked his arse and told her acolytes to read the flawed reasoning of Hayek and the Frankfurt/Chicago schools of Economics.

Where does the Left go, in my opinion we do not go rightwards, a few sops to the working class is not enough, a minimum wage is laughable and brexit has to be embraced, not fought against.

The Left is now seen as unpatriotic, but its the grandfathers of the left who did their patriotic duty and saved us from Fascism. It was the brave young lads who joined the International Brigade in Spain who fought fascism.

The left must always be Anti Fascist, it must always be anti authoritarian and must always work for the best interests of the working class.

Thanks, mate. My issue is that our modern society seems to totally disregard the left, as this current government proves. The only way to change it and make any in-roads is to have an electable party. If that means that Starmer is the one, with Rayner by his side, then that will at least be a start.

The truth is, many of those who the left are trying to help, are apathetic to politics as they are so down trodden so don’t even bother to vote. How do the Labour party, on all fronts, weaponise those votes?

 

[Rascal]

Thanks, mate. My issue is that our modern society seems to totally disregard the left, as this current government proves. The only way to change it and make any in-roads is to have an electable party. If that means that Starmer is the one, with Rayner by his side, then that will at least be a start.

The truth is, many of those who the left are trying to help, are apathetic to politics as they are so down trodden so don’t even bother to vote. How do the Labour party, on all fronts, weaponise those votes?

The left Is disregarded because the wealthy control the media and fund RW think tanks that rail against anything remotely left wing. The print media is virtually all right wing, The visual media is RW or in the BBCs case supposedly neutral. Even the BBC is accused of being Marxist though and to counteract that it has cunts like Farage on. The left has little media presence anywhere, even James OB on LBC is a liberal not a leftist, although again he is accused of being very left wing. The RW have successfully made the mythical centre ground somewhere around what used to be considered centre right. The whole political paradigm has shifted rightwards and anyone with views like mine is now considered a far left dinosaur.

The problem that creates in my mind is that the only way Labour can get elected is by being more right wing, which in my mind means i cannot vote for them and it leaves many on the left politically homeless. It will take a generation though for the left to make a comeback, it needs new idea's and new blood.

 

[Vic]

The left Is disregarded because the wealthy control the media and fund RW think tanks that rail against anything remotely left wing. The print media is virtually all right wing, The visual media is RW or in the BBCs case supposedly neutral. Even the BBC is accused of being Marxist though and to counteract that it has cunts like Farage on. The left has little media presence anywhere, even James OB on LBC is a liberal not a leftist, although again he is accused of being very left wing. The RW have successfully made the mythical centre ground somewhere around what used to be considered centre right. The whole political paradigm has shifted rightwards and anyone with views like mine is now considered a far left dinosaur.

The problem that creates in my mind is that the only way Labour can get elected is by being more right wing, which in my mind means i cannot vote for them and it leaves many on the left politically homeless. It will take a generation though for the left to make a comeback, it needs new idea's and new blood.

I actually think that "politically homeless" is a bit of an insult to left-wing people in the Labour party, including MPs, in every era who have been to the left of the leadership (Gaitskell, Wilson, Kinnock, Smith, Blair). Part of the problem is that even in the unions, too few members are left-wing, despite the propaganda opportunity the union leaders have. Even the idea of appealing more to the working class is a dead end when so few people now think of themselves as working class - and you could trace that back a long way, e.g. to Mechanics Institutes as demonstrating co-operation between owners and labour.

I can imagine you as the guy in The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists trying to persuade fellow-workers about the way they're exploited. (By the way, Townsend Theatre who did a great stage version of that are back on the road soon with a story about Upper Clyde Shipbuilders... TOWNSEND THEATRE PRODUCTIONS ⎯ Upper Clyde Shipbuilders a new play: Yes! Yes! U.C.S.! (townsendproductions.org.uk )

 

[Rascal]

I actually think that "politically homeless" is a bit of an insult to left-wing people in the Labour party, including MPs, in every era who have been to the left of the leadership (Gaitskell, Wilson, Kinnock, Smith, Blair). Part of the problem is that even in the unions, too few members are left-wing, despite the propaganda opportunity the union leaders have. Even the idea of appealing more to the working class is a dead end when so few people now think of themselves as working class - and you could trace that back a long way, e.g. to Mechanics Institutes as demonstrating co-operation between owners and labour.

I can imagine you as the guy in The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists trying to persuade fellow-workers about the way they're exploited. (By the way, Townsend Theatre who did a great stage version of that are back on the road soon with a story about Upper Clyde Shipbuilders... TOWNSEND THEATRE PRODUCTIONS ⎯ Upper Clyde Shipbuilders a new play: Yes! Yes! U.C.S.! (townsendproductions.org.uk )

And you are one of the reasons the RW has triumphed.

You believe the nonsense and its fuck the precariat. Thatcher described class as a Communist concept, but the right have waged class war on the left since her inception as PM and her mission was to destroy the working class.

I am a working class lad born on a Salford council estate and i now live on a council estate in Cheadle, my estate ain't fucking middle class or whatever the RW cunts like to describe us as. We have been vilified at every turn and called curtain twitcher's yet the solidarity on my street remains intact, we look out for each other, we are a community not the libertarian individuals of Tory fantasy.

We were told number ONE comes first, its Toryism at its zenith, yet all across the country streets like mine act as collectives. Why you may ask, its human nature to be socialised, we can not achieve anything alone. That Tory myth of individual greatness is a myth, That though is the danger of the sovereign individual, a notion of RW thinking that gives Capitalism the greater importance in our lives, Dog eats dog, its Tory Darwinism and at the moment as is stands its proto fascism,

You may think I am Frank Owen, which to be fair is more accurate than those who think i am Lenin, but all i have ever wanted is this country to be run by people who are working class, not the Capitalist class and the Etonian upper class elite.

We deserve better

 

[bluethrunthru]

Shrewd move today - advise they will vote with the govt to avoid accusations of playing politics with Covid 19 by Johnson. That then puts the inevitable failure of 18m doses of boosters in 19 days fairly and squarely on Johnsons shoulders - and that means Johnson can hardly go on to say " I only got my way and failed because you played politics and supported me - failure is not my fault " - he is making Johnson back himself into a corner from which he cannot escape

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

The left Is disregarded because the wealthy control the media and fund RW think tanks that rail against anything remotely left wing. The print media is virtually all right wing, The visual media is RW or in the BBCs case supposedly neutral. Even the BBC is accused of being Marxist though and to counteract that it has cunts like Farage on. The left has little media presence anywhere, even James OB on LBC is a liberal not a leftist, although again he is accused of being very left wing. The RW have successfully made the mythical centre ground somewhere around what used to be considered centre right. The whole political paradigm has shifted rightwards and anyone with views like mine is now considered a far left dinosaur.

The problem that creates in my mind is that the only way Labour can get elected is by being more right wing, which in my mind means i cannot vote for them and it leaves many on the left politically homeless. It will take a generation though for the left to make a comeback, it needs new idea's and new blood.

Which is not going to happen. Maybe a change of course?