Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Legal Alien]

It’s interesting to see so much discussion of Russia and the USA but not so much about Ukraine. I think it is telling in all of this, Ukraine being used, as so many other countries have, as a surrogate. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and the wishes of its population is what matters imho. It is not for Russia, like a spurned, violent ex husband, or the US, as a new, manipulative suitor , to dictate it’s future.

I agree, but i think it's control of Ukraine's natural resources that the bullies are really after...

The Forgotten Potential of Ukraine’s Energy Reserves

A resolute development of Ukraine’s untapped reserves in the production, export and storage of energy would be in the interest of all sides involved.

hir.harvard.edu

 

[Vic]

I’m not, but the lack of evenhandedness towards America, esp the American military that helped keep global peace for 4 generations, is easy to negate.



The point I was making was that for America it seems they’re “damned if you do, damned if you don’t!” when it comes to playing with dictators.

Aggressive dictators, which don’t want to play get spanked and the ones who represent no threat are cajoled, even coddled. Peace often isn’t pretty. Pick your poison!



Is that a serious question? I ask because it’s completely irrelevant to the issue!



You’re welcome!
SMH

Thanks for that. Appreciated.

I really don't think 20 million dead is irrelevant. It's part of Russian history (invasion by Napoleon, invasion by Hitler), it fed the Cold War and it's now something else that Putin can use to stoke fears at home.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

They’re indoctrinated from birth. Told repeatedly that their country is “exceptional”. Made to pledge their allegiance every morning in school. Taught a selective history. Sing the national anthem before various events. Flags plastered everywhere. Fed half truths or outright lies by their media.

The only person defending them to some degree on this little corner of Western Moscow was not indoctrinated, but you keep up with your broad generalizations of the 330,000,000 people being denigrated.

I let a bunch of your shit go on another post, but this “third person” BS isn’t going unchallenged, seeing it’s about me as the only person staking any ground.

Sometimes, and there are many Americans who believe this, it might be nice for America to simply withdraw and step back, watching the shitstorms unfold and lift no finger.

“Pacifist & Appeasement Europe” would have to defend itself and its stupidity against an expansionist foe. Germany, the largest country and economy in Europe, might have to do slightly more than 5,000 helmets for Grandma and her single shot 1950s style rifle to defend her eastern flank! France might have to do more than wave a hand and sniff. Greeks might have to get off the beach and Spaniards awake from their siesta. And, the Italians? Well, they’d simply have to stop resting on their laurels of 2000 yrs ago and put down their coffee and cigs.

Oh, but wait, I should stop lest I’ve said too much…!

Yes, let’s imagine what the world would look like with an America that kept all its military might within its own borders and never strayed beyond them; issuing strong letters of condemnation rather than pissing away billions, nay trillions, helping defend Allies (and our collective interests) who THINK their shit doesn’t stink!

What would have happened if the Bat phone had been left off the hook for the last 50-70 years?

 

[Vic]

must admit, that's what i thought the poster meant. a nod to the fact that yes, they did annex mexico.

as for any hate towards the US, it's not hate, it's just annoyance that they actually believe all their "spreading freedom" bullshit.

Indeed. In fact, the whole country annexed itself from those who lived there before.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Thanks for that. Appreciated.

I really don't think 20 million dead is irrelevant. It's part of Russian history (invasion by Napoleon, invasion by Hitler), it fed the Cold War and it's now something else that Putin can use to stoke fears at home.

I meant it was an irrelevant counterpoint to the point I made about the loss of American life in the Pacific and the need for Allied support across such a vast ocean once the war has been won.
We were discussing Chinese expansionism, not Russia, which has a rather large, well fortified and protected Kamchatka Peninsula on its eastern flank.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Indeed. In fact, the whole country annexed itself from those who lived there before.

And which country did that “annexing”???

The self awareness is eye watering.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I know that, I'm trying to explain that Russia is no saint in this situation either.. lot of hate America in here.. I don't like how the US conduct themselves around a lot of the world.. but If they weren't doing it then China or Russia would be doing it instead of some other overpowered country.. All countries should just deal with their own shit and stop trying to fuck with other countries or land grab because they think it's their god given right.

The “annexation” of countries by America is amusing, especially when discussed by Britons whose Empire has crumbled before their eyes to the point that they’ve completely reversed their own sordid history to vote for self-annexation FROM their closest Allies in Europe, because they don’t like to play nice with “Frogs and Krauts.”

The sun actually does set on the “American Empire” because it’s not a thing!

 

[mat]

Is it safe to order a Ukrainian bride again? Asking for a mate

My mate says you get 50% off with the code DonbasDiscount

 

[andyhinch]

Is it safe to order a Ukrainian bride again? Asking for a mate

Order them to do what ? They can have a temper.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

They’re indoctrinated from birth. Told repeatedly that their country is “exceptional”. Made to pledge their allegiance every morning in school. Taught a selective history. Sing the national anthem before various events. Flags plastered everywhere. Fed half truths or outright lies by their media.

I've lived in the USA and this is sadly the truth. They are an utterly and totally brainwashed population. That's why you hear all their morons calling themselves "patriots".

I have many American friends even now and they also have a lot of qualities that we Brits don't tend to have, but their nationalism is ugly, as is their authoritarianism.

 

[Vic]

Sometimes, and there are many Americans who believe this, it might be nice for America to simply withdraw and step back, watching the shitstorms unfold and lift no finger.



Yes, let’s imagine what the world would look like with an America that kept all its military might within its own borders and never strayed beyond them; issuing strong letters of condemnation rather than pissing away billions, nay trillions, helping defend Allies (and our collective interests) who THINK their shit doesn’t stink!

I think Afghanistan is providing an example of withdrawal and step back.

I did some academic study of tyrannicide and whether it is a moral duty to go to the aid of people under a tyrant. The best quote (not to hand) was the guy a few hundred years ago who said it was remarkable how willingness to rescue people of other lands was related to what was in it for the rescuers. That I can imagine, but not necessarily what happens without intervention.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I think Afghanistan is providing an example of withdrawal and step back.

Given that was as a result of the deadliest single attack on American soil in history, even surpassing Pearl Harbor, it is not an example of what I suggested…but you got your dig in, and that’s what counts, right?!


[/quote]I did some academic study of tyrannicide and whether it is a moral duty to go to the aid of people under a tyrant. The best quote (not to hand) was the guy a few hundred years ago who said it was remarkable how willingness to rescue people of other lands was related to what was in it for the rescuers. That I can imagine, but not necessarily what happens without intervention.
[/QUOTE]

It’d be nice to see, for a change.

The problem, of course, is cleaning up a mess later is often far more expensive, dangerous and deadly than taking the heads of the hydra when they first appear to others, who claim to be your friends and Allies.

 

[west didsblue]

Why don't they settle it by seeing who's got the longest table.

 

[Elbow beards]

Why don't they settle it by seeing who's got the longest table.

They look like they're playing a massive air hockey game. Now that would be a way of solving things.

 

[hilts]

Why don't they settle it by seeing who's got the longest table.

Bloody hell push penny has become more difficult

 

[Homar]

While we are on the subject of “ignoring,” you’re conveniently ignoring most all of that is by request of smaller Allies seeking protection.

Or, are you suggesting the US invades small parts of these allied countries to create staging posts and “lily pads” (the term they use for small, perfunctory outposts in foreign lands with minimum personnel) against the will of the allied government and they don’t want US protection at all?

The false equivalency is astounding!

Did I wander onto Pravda.org or the Interfax Agency website?!

So it would be fine if Venezuela or Cuba invited China and/or Russia to construct hundreds of military bases? Why should the US be allowed to construct hundreds of bases thousands of miles from its borders, strategically positioned next to its self-declared enemies, but Russia and China should not? Why should the US be allowed to send its military to the borders of Russia or China, but Russia shouldn’t be allowed to send its military to Belarus?

Whether you care to admit it or not, you believe that it’s one set of rules for the US and another for the rest of the world. This belief is a product of your indoctrination. A result of the American exceptionalism fallacy. And that post was not targeted specifically at yourself.

If you were born Russian, there’s a good chance you’d be defending Russia. If you were born North Korean, you’d probably be marching in their parades. If you were born Iranian, you’d be chanting “death to America”. If you were on the receiving end of America’s brutality, you’d think differently about the country you’ve been taught to worship.

 

[Vic]

Given that was as a result of the deadliest single attack on American soil in history, even surpassing Pearl Harbor, it is not an example of what I suggested…but you got your dig in, and that’s what counts, right?!

It wasn't intended as a dig particularly. But withdrawal was/is a disaster.

But America funded the mujahideen to oust the Soviets from Afghanistan, including Bin Laden, and it is another example of what happens if you imagine if America had not intervened (and let the USSR deal with the terrorists rather turning them into freedom fighters)

 

[blueish swede]

Massive hacker attack (DDOS?) launched against Ukranian banks and goverment sites this evening.

 

[metalblue]

So it would be fine if Venezuela or Cuba invited China and/or Russia to construct hundreds of military bases? Why should the US be allowed to construct hundreds of bases thousands of miles from its borders, strategically positioned next to its self-declared enemies, but Russia and China should not? Why should the US be allowed to send its military to the borders of Russia or China, but Russia shouldn’t be allowed to send its military to Belarus?

Whether you care to admit it or not, you believe that it’s one set of rules for the US and another for the rest of the world. This belief is a product of your indoctrination. A result of the American exceptionalism fallacy. And that post was not targeted specifically at yourself.

If you were born Russian, there’s a good chance you’d be defending Russia. If you were born North Korean, you’d probably be marching in their parades. If you were born Iranian, you’d be chanting “death to America”. If you were on the receiving end of America’s brutality, you’d think differently about the country you’ve been taught to worship.

I get it, you hate the US, but some perspective won’t go amiss.

When you say hundreds of bases you actually mean 90 permanent bases across about 40 counties, including those bases in NATO members along with other security co-operative nations? And who says both China and Russia can’t? You do know both of them have oversea bases as well don’t you? China is currently looking to setup a second base in Africa this one along the Atlantic seaboard - an ocean it doesn’t border - similar to the US and the Indian Ocean. Yes the US is trying to prevent this and in the interests of “all is fair in love and war” it’s a little bit rich them doing so if you only measure it against the US having bases but I’d rather have the US policing the world than the Chinese, all day, every day.

Anyroad I’m sure the residents of Taiwan and South Korea, to name but two, are delighted that the US provides a counter balance to regional powerhouses and would be aggressors.

 

[mexico1970]

This has turned into an anti-American thread, thankfully most people in the UK and Europe don't think like that.