Political relations between UK-EU

[Marlo]

Politically that would be suicide. The performance of the Lib Dems in the last election will have scarred many of them.

The best strategy is to say "you ran on a manifesto to deliver Brexit and make the UK more prosperous, why have you not done so".

The sad fact is Britain cannot rejoin the EU for at least another generation, the other question is would we be allowed back in? Would we be let in without having to adopt the Euro?

 

[Saddleworth2]

Just out of interest, are any of the major parties advocating rejoining the EU as part of their manifestos? Having been out of the UK for a while, I'm not sure where each one stands on EU membership these days.

SNP.

 

[PragueBlue]

SNP.

Not even the Lib-Dems these days? Have they given up the fight?

 

[blueparrot]

Not even the Lib-Dems these days? Have they given up the fight?

Who?
Seriously I haven't a clue what any of their policies on anything are.

 

[journolud]

Who?
Seriously I haven't a clue what any of their policies on anything are.

Have they not written to you to explain them? Most remiss of them. If only there was a way we could find out what our political parties stood for so that we could be better informed

Members Make Policy

Find out how our members make our policies

www.libdems.org.uk

Ignorance can be a choice

 

[blueparrot]

Have they not written to you to explain them? Most remiss of them. If only there was a way we could find out what our political parties stood for so that we could be better informed

Members Make Policy

Find out how our members make our policies

www.libdems.org.uk

Ignorance can be a choice

Well it can and it is, which is besides the point. They are a political party that should be out there pushing their policies. Trying to convince those like me that don't vote Liberal and never go onto any parties web sites. As the vast majority of people don't.
Just because I don't vote for them is no reason why I shouldn't be coming across their policies in my general life. Heres the thing under previous leaders / incarnations then I did know because they made it known, and sometimes I voted for them..

 

[bluethrunthru]

Politically that would be suicide. The performance of the Lib Dems in the last election will have scarred many of them.

The best strategy is to say "you ran on a manifesto to deliver Brexit and make the UK more prosperous, why have you not done so".

The sad fact is Britain cannot rejoin the EU for at least another generation, the other question is would we be allowed back in? Would we be let in without having to adopt the Euro?

No we wouldn't - I think quite rightly that the EU would consider any approach from the UK like that of any other non-member and apply the same joining criteria. Their approach would/should be any benefits we had we gave up ourselves - simple fact is that no matter how much this Govt hides the truth the effect on our trade and our economy is there to be seen - we will be seen to approach them cap in hand and having the upper hand in negotiations I'd expect them to exploit that. And before anyone bangs on about 5th largest economy just think if our own ONS says Brexit will give us a 4% hit year on year to the size of the economy think how it will be reduced in a generation..........even if thats pessimistic we won't be top ten by the time we want to get back in

 

[PragueBlue]

the other question is would we be allowed back in? Would we be let in without having to adopt the Euro?

I would have thought that we would be allowed back in if we wanted to though possibly/probably on worse terms. I doubt we'd have to adopt the Euro. Other recent(ish) member countries haven't had to.

Ultimately I was just wondering if any of the major parties was campaigning to do so. I know the Lib-Dems were very vocal about stopping Brexit but hadn't really heard of any parties putting forward the possibility of rejoining.

As you say though, it's probably too soon for that.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Not even the Lib-Dems these days? Have they given up the fight?

The Lib - Dem position:

The basic thrust of the party’s position is therefore clear: to demonstrate how the version of Brexit that the government has chosen is disastrous for the UK in every respect, and to call for a different relationship in the immediate term – for example, membership of the Single Market – that would be much better. In this way, we aim to construct a ‘roadmap to rejoin’ that ultimately convinces the electorate – including a sizeable number of those who voted Leave in 2016 – that membership of the EU is in the UK’s best interests.

It’s a pragmatic position. Their ‘ultimate’ aim.
It is a more enlightened position than Labour though. Starmer recently made clear his position ‘There is no case to rejoin’.
Gives the SNP plenty to go at in Scotland albeit I have increasing doubt that they have the stomach, competence and intellect to manage independence through a referendum and a transition programme.

 

[PragueBlue]

The Lib - Dem position:

The basic thrust of the party’s position is therefore clear: to demonstrate how the version of Brexit that the government has chosen is disastrous for the UK in every respect, and to call for a different relationship in the immediate term – for example, membership of the Single Market – that would be much better. In this way, we aim to construct a ‘roadmap to rejoin’ that ultimately convinces the electorate – including a sizeable number of those who voted Leave in 2016 – that membership of the EU is in the UK’s best interests.

It’s a pragmatic position. Their ‘ultimate’ aim.
It is a more enlightened position than Labour though. Starmer recently made clear his position ‘There is no case to rejoin’.
Gives the SNP plenty to go at in Scotland albeit I have increasing doubt that they have the stomach, competence and intellect to manage independence through a referendum and a transition programme.

Thanks for that.

 

[Bodicoteblue]

Politically that would be suicide. The performance of the Lib Dems in the last election will have scarred many of them.

The best strategy is to say "you ran on a manifesto to deliver Brexit and make the UK more prosperous, why have you not done so".

The sad fact is Britain cannot rejoin the EU for at least another generation, the other question is would we be allowed back in? Would we be let in without having to adopt the Euro?

It may (or may not) be that there could be some kind of tipping point re brexit when common sense overtakes the redundant notions of sovereignty and control when we have neither.
It‘s becoming increasingly clear that being outside the EU is costing us more than being members now and the true cost when taking trade costs and the expense of customs staff and checks will end up being ruinous.
In return- well there seem to be no tangible benefits to us whatsoever.
A commons committee examined the evidence recently and came to that very conclusion, and we have a minister for brexit benefits pitching to sun readers ( apparently with an average reading age of 9) to come up with something- anything! I’m assuming from the deathly silence that no great ideas have been forthcoming.
There has to come a time when pride will have to be swallowed and the reality of what is happening sinks in and steps taken to save what’s left, because the further we diverge from EU standards, and the further this idiot government ‘deregulate’ the more difficult and expensive any recovery of trade with Europe becomes. A crown on your beer glass not sufficient.
A plea to rejoin the customs union and single market would be a start as long as people realise that further drifting away is seriously dangerous and may become a permanent irreparable situation.

 

[bluethrunthru]

It may (or may not) be that there could be some kind of tipping point re brexit when common sense overtakes the redundant notions of sovereignty and control when we have neither.
It‘s becoming increasingly clear that being outside the EU is costing us more than being members now and the true cost when taking trade costs and the expense of customs staff and checks will end up being ruinous.
In return- well there seem to be no tangible benefits to us whatsoever.
A commons committee examined the evidence recently and came to that very conclusion, and we have a minister for brexit benefits pitching to sun readers ( apparently with an average reading age of 9) to come up with something- anything! I’m assuming from the deathly silence that no great ideas have been forthcoming.
There has to come a time when pride will have to be swallowed and the reality of what is happening sinks in and steps taken to save what’s left, because the further we diverge from EU standards, and the further this idiot government ‘deregulate’ the more difficult and expensive any recovery of trade with Europe becomes. A crown on your beer glass not sufficient.
A plea to rejoin the customs union and single market would be a start as long as people realise that further drifting away is seriously dangerous and may become a permanent irreparable situation.

as long as this lot in charge the true costs and losses will be denied and covered up - like they aim to do with Covid as of Friday - cases will start to fall next month and they will claim the fact that no-one is testing is totally unrelated - likewise with Brexit when NZ lamb costs a lot it will be "only to be expected for stuff that comes from the other side of the world" and when people looking to drive abroad find endless queue's at ports it will be " its the fault of those pesky/lazy French/Dutch/Belgian sailors " ( interchangeable to suit whatever narrative they want to push at that time ) - there will have to be a change of governing party who are then prepared to release ALL the damaging stats to illustrate to people how much they are continually lied to

 

[bluethrunthru]

the two failings forever interlinked

Brexit delayed pandemic plans says disaster expert

Prof Lucy Easthope says the UK "acted too late" in its response to Covid-19 pandemic.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[bluethrunthru]

Johnson knows fuck all about business and understands even less - we are back to "you just have to believe more"

Boris Johnson says British exporters lack 'energy and ambition'

The Prime Minister told senior MPs there was 'no natural impediment' to firms wanting to sell goods and services abroad, after more than a year of post-Brexit complaints from businesses

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Marlo]

It may (or may not) be that there could be some kind of tipping point re brexit when common sense overtakes the redundant notions of sovereignty and control when we have neither.
It‘s becoming increasingly clear that being outside the EU is costing us more than being members now and the true cost when taking trade costs and the expense of customs staff and checks will end up being ruinous.
In return- well there seem to be no tangible benefits to us whatsoever.
A commons committee examined the evidence recently and came to that very conclusion, and we have a minister for brexit benefits pitching to sun readers ( apparently with an average reading age of 9) to come up with something- anything! I’m assuming from the deathly silence that no great ideas have been forthcoming.
There has to come a time when pride will have to be swallowed and the reality of what is happening sinks in and steps taken to save what’s left, because the further we diverge from EU standards, and the further this idiot government ‘deregulate’ the more difficult and expensive any recovery of trade with Europe becomes. A crown on your beer glass not sufficient.
A plea to rejoin the customs union and single market would be a start as long as people realise that further drifting away is seriously dangerous and may become a permanent irreparable situation.

I agree but the consensus you are describing will not occur in this election cycle or even the next one. A perfect illustration was today at the dispatch box, Johnson on the ropes his get out of jail card "he would take us back into the EU". This is a huge problem, until this shield is broken down it will be a vote winner and a chance to keep people divided.

Even now it is not possible for somebody who voted remain to criticise the brexit deal, as they can be dismissed as a remoaner. There is also a collective dissonance from many parts of the media about how to report it. Regardless of your position on brexit, for or against, the toxicity of the debate has ruined the chance to examine this situation in a clear headed way.

As I said, the reality you describe will come round at last, but my guess is it is probably 12 years away.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I found this Twitter thread pretty good based as it is on some good analysis of Brexit ‘Identities’.

the conclusion seems to provide a glimmer of hope if Labour in particular can grasp it.



To save you wading through the thread, here is the conclusion (option 2). - a political option which would find most favour with both tribes.
’No shit Sherlock’ I hear some say :-)

 

[Bodicoteblue]

I agree but the consensus you are describing will not occur in this election cycle or even the next one. A perfect illustration was today at the dispatch box, Johnson on the ropes his get out of jail card "he would take us back into the EU". This is a huge problem, until this shield is broken down it will be a vote winner and a chance to keep people divided.

Even now it is not possible for somebody who voted remain to criticise the brexit deal, as they can be dismissed as a remoaner. There is also a collective dissonance from many parts of the media about how to report it. Regardless of your position on brexit, for or against, the toxicity of the debate has ruined the chance to examine this situation in a clear headed way.

As I said, the reality you describe will come round at last, but my guess is it is probably 12 years away.

What a depressing prospect.
I just get the feeling (maybe a tad optimistically) that as the covid excuse drops away, the damage to the country’s economy and international standing caused by brexit will become very stark.
If there is one thing that sways public opinion here it is the cost of living, how much everyday food , drink, fuel etc. will take out of your pocket and since we are now facing an unprecedented rise in those and the biggest reduction in our standard of living fo generations, the anti- government feeling could accelerate quire rapidly.
It could be seen as short-term thinking by brexit and govt. supporters, but that’s the way people think.
I see the real problem as getting people out to vote in large enough numbers, given the now common refrain of ‘they’re all as bad as each other’. This is deadly for democracy, but that is the way this lot want it.

 

[bluethrunthru]

a reminder of the Gammon exceptionalism following the David Davis line - fucking absolutely clueless on how international trade works as has been proven - tonight she was trying to lecture a climatologist on global warming - its not what you know when you know fuck all

 

[Marlo]

What a depressing prospect.
I just get the feeling (maybe a tad optimistically) that as the covid excuse drops away, the damage to the country’s economy and international standing caused by brexit will become very stark.
If there is one thing that sways public opinion here it is the cost of living, how much everyday food , drink, fuel etc. will take out of your pocket and since we are now facing an unprecedented rise in those and the biggest reduction in our standard of living fo generations, the anti- government feeling could accelerate quire rapidly.
It could be seen as short-term thinking by brexit and govt. supporters, but that’s the way people think.
I see the real problem as getting people out to vote in large enough numbers, given the now common refrain of ‘they’re all as bad as each other’. This is deadly for democracy, but that is the way this lot want it.

Yes, unfortunately that pain looks like it is coming. To get people out to vote, the ideal thing would be to have a leader who goes out and inspires an electorate, Obama is probably the most recent one I can think of. I would love to see a politican with charisma make the case for immigration, properly take on Farage and stop the punching down that is too common nowadays.

 

[Vic]

It may (or may not) be that there could be some kind of tipping point re brexit when common sense overtakes the redundant notions of sovereignty and control when we have neither.
It‘s becoming increasingly clear that being outside the EU is costing us more than being members now and the true cost when taking trade costs and the expense of customs staff and checks will end up being ruinous.
In return- well there seem to be no tangible benefits to us whatsoever.
A commons committee examined the evidence recently and came to that very conclusion, and we have a minister for brexit benefits pitching to sun readers ( apparently with an average reading age of 9) to come up with something- anything! I’m assuming from the deathly silence that no great ideas have been forthcoming.
There has to come a time when pride will have to be swallowed and the reality of what is happening sinks in and steps taken to save what’s left, because the further we diverge from EU standards, and the further this idiot government ‘deregulate’ the more difficult and expensive any recovery of trade with Europe becomes. A crown on your beer glass not sufficient.
A plea to rejoin the customs union and single market would be a start as long as people realise that further drifting away is seriously dangerous and may become a permanent irreparable situation.

Hey, black passports are back.