Do you support the RMT?

[shemnel]

Listening to various news reports this morning and I think it’s safe to say the RMT are not getting the support from Joe Public that they seem to be getting on here.
We have had hospital staff on saying there will be big shortages in numbers putting the welfare of patients at risk and a station shop owner saying if the strikes are going to continue that’s the end of his business.
Perhaps some need to re look at their definition of who qualifies as greedy and selfish but I doubt they will.

I think there'll always be a stick to beat those you don't always agree with, e.g. the private v public sector debate, and now the ever increasing trend that any form of protest/strike is labelled as 'inconvenient' to others or putting others at risk. See that in the latest form of accusations and even laws passed against protesting. I understand many people will be inconvenienced by this and some will be put at risk, but if you have got to the point of disrupting millions to get your say, surely that is indicative of underlying problems in governance.

Train strike chaos to continue because ministers 'won't allow' rail firms to negotiate with RMT

Rail industry sources tell i that their hands are being tied by the Government

inews.co.uk

We'll always have our own thresholds, coal miner strikes were very very inconvenient to many, and dare i say a lot of people did support them, but others didn't. I struck in my sector around 5 years ago, we went down the path of minimum disruption to anyone else with some visibility out on the streets etc. We achieved the net sum of fuck all, I wish we had raised a few hackles.

 

[urban genie]

Listening to various news reports this morning and I think it’s safe to say the RMT are not getting the support from Joe Public that they seem to be getting on here.
We have had hospital staff on saying there will be big shortages in numbers putting the welfare of patients at risk and a station shop owner saying if the strikes are going to continue that’s the end of his business.
Perhaps some need to re look at their definition of who qualifies as greedy and selfish but I doubt they will.

After 10+ years of UK news outlets relying on 5 min vox pops normally with an emphasis on those disgruntled by the subject to comment, I am suprised anyone takes them as gospel.

And that goes anyway, ones that are pro my opinion or anti, there is a serious lack of in depth analysis anymore instead we have settled for a quick take commentary

 

[fulabeer]

Those who don't like unions (or not in one) should remember they still enjoy the benefits won regardless.
The last major strike 30 years ago involved political warfare. The (labour) government stooped so low as to use the "Roy Castle train of hope" as part of the smearing campaign to turn public opinion against the strike.
They were quoted as saying how greedy we were to stop a charity train from running!
The thing is, it had been agreed by all strikers to run that one train. But the government buried that news story.

At the time, the strikers were asking for a 3.7% increase. Government interference meant this was rejected, as they didn't want anybody getting more than 2% in any sector.

It was then announced mid way through the strike that MP's "had" to have an 11% increase in pay.
Apparently, this wasn't an actual pay rise. It was just a pay "adjustment" to bring our MP's inline with their European counter parts.
We then found out, they they were also getting the normal pay rise already agreed on top!

Of course they will bring out how much the top railway workers earn. But i can tell you that those top earners do it through massive amount of overtime and unsociable hours shift work.
The truth is, that it doesn't matter what they earn. No pay rise or low pay rises over a number of years is an actual pay cut.
Nobody wants to earn less each year for the same work.

Strikes are a last resort. Everybody loses out because of them.
Strikers don't get paid and the employers loses revenue.
So regardless of how this inconveniences you, at least understand that nobody wants strikes!

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Those who don't like unions (or not in one) should remember they still enjoy the benefits won regardless.
The last major strike 30 years ago involved political warfare. They (labour) government stooped so low as to use the "Roy Castle train of hope" as part of the smearing campaign to turn public opinion against the strike.
They were quoted as saying how greedy we were to stop a charity train from running!
The thing is, it had been agreed by all strikers to run that one train. But the government buried that news story.

At the time, the strikers were asking for a 3.7% increase. Government interference meant this was rejected, as they didn't want anybody getting more than 2% in any sector.

It was then announced mid way through the strike that MP's "had" to have an 11% increase in pay.
Apparently, this wasn't an actual pay rise. It was just a pay "adjustment" to bring our MP's inline with their European counter parts.
We then found out, they they were also getting the normal pay rise already agreed on top!

Of course they will bring out how much the top railway workers earn. But i can tell you that those top earners do it through massive amount of overtime and unsociable hours shift work.
The truth is, that it doesn't matter what they earn. No pay rise or low pay rises over a number of years is an actual pay cut.
Nobody wants to earn less each year for the same work.

Strikes are a last resort. Everybody loses out because of them.
Strikers don't get paid and the employers loses revenue.
So regardless of how this inconveniences you, at least understand that nobody wants strikes!

I'd assumed that the top pay comments had to include lots of overtime, so thank you for confirming it.

Strikes have to be inconvenient to some people, or there isn't much point in them.

 

[Mike N]

Grant Shapps stated on TV that the strike is not justified as nurses are paid less.

I am not even going to bother explaining why that is a stupid comment.

You’ve saved me a job, I was going to write the same thing! Apart from him, I heard two other Tories say this over the weekend. The WhatsApp message must have gone out early.

I’m sure the nurses really appreciate the comments from the government. The same government who have run the NHS down over the past 12 years and reduced their pay, in real terms. At least they got clapped every Thursday night!

 

[metalblue]

Usually pal you put up a decent counter argument, this time I do not even see a point.

I consider myself a student of RW viewpoints, I read voraciously so that i can understand why. All you have done my friend is parrot the Mail etc etc

The classic RW attack is hypocrisy , usually around the things that the owners of capital want to attack the working class on the behalf of the owners of capital.

Majoritism, BTW is classical Fascist speak, its a base assumption based on ones own feelings and ones echo chamber. Speaking for the silent majority is now in our political lexicon, the problem is lots of people in this country are disengaged and that saddens me, but its no accident. Keep the working class uneducated and they are no threat, its feudalism.

The left never moans about high pay, the right always moans about high pay for the poor

We need a revolution... now

Apologies mate. I was queuing at the cinema rightfully getting evil eyes from Mrs MB so it was a rather rushed post ;)

My point is a number of kids are going to be impacted by this - to discount that, whatever the actual numbers is not acceptable nor is it what I would expect from the left. I think, from your post, we agree on that - so my central premise of I have no issue with the strike itself, just the timing - remains.

Principally I don’t really like national pay deals nor the minimum wage - not the ideas but rather the execution and how the systems are abused. I would very much prefer to see free market economics at play where train companies, schools or hospitals genuinely compete against one another for staff where the going pay isn’t a “pre-known” this will create wage inflation naturally. I accept it might not be that practical due to geography, it’s not like hospitals are 10 a penny in any given area so what…you move areas? Thats hardly practical. That said the private sector is a poster child of free market economics and very few have seen real pay rises in the last decade and those at the bottom have seen pay cuts in real terms. For this I think the minimum wage bears some responsibility- a great idea being exploited where we have supermarkets no longer have to guess what their competitors pay their staff as the minimum wage largely sets the bar for them. This should come as no surprise as supermarkets have used their size to suppress prices they pay for years now - but we all pop along and buy their shit so they are under no pressure to change.

Tax credits and tax cuts cover up most of the real terms pay cuts people have seen in both the public and private sector. We do need a complete overhaul of the system and we need to wean people off working tax credits by getting them fairer pay. A revolution is probably a bit strong, maybe we can just bring in some new legislation rather than burn the world down? I don’t have the answers to what that legislation is, nor the platform to implement it, but I’d probably be fairly supportive with something like:

1. Abolish minimum wage for over 21s and bring in a social responsibility bill wherein national companies will pay a fair wage to staff removing the burden on the tax payer - this will have independent oversight with huge fines to anyone who breaches what is deemed fair - it’s far less transparent for the companies and retrospective that should keep them on their toes and pay people what they are worth to them, not what they can get away with.

2. Huge penalties for firms and prison sentences for CEOs where collusion on pay between rival organisations is uncovered - purpose here is to keep them blind to what others see as fair pay and use their own judgement on what is fair.

3. New law and oversight body on strike action that concerns pay or safety. Where that body agrees that the strike action falls below corporate responsibility on pay or safety staff that strike will be given full pay. Where it doesn’t staff can still strike but as now on no pay. If we look at one of the reasons for strike from a train strike a while back was about removing guards on trains and how it was unsafe - I wouldn’t expect this body to find in favour of the train staff as it’s perceived with no firm evidence (just subjective). But crucially the train staff can still strike if they feel that strongly about it.

4. No government can bring in legislation like that when it’s own house isn’t in order so a thorough review of all public sector take home pay using 2010 as a benchmark - and using that report and inflation to get everyone to 2010 take home pay + inflation since 2010. That is the absolute minimum. I’d even probably use that “2010 take home + inflation” as a starting point for supermarkets and the such as well. Take home is important rather than headline wages as it takes into account the huge reduction we’ve seen in tax thresholds that has left more money in most peoples pockets.

 

[west didsblue]

Whilst I have sympathy with the aims of the strikers, what’s different about this strike is that the government clearly want it to happen. What’s important to them is the creation of division because having one half of the population in conflict with the other half is how they see their best chance of retaining power by trying to be seen as on the side of the rail using public. Why else would the government constrain the operating companies negotiating position. The government obviously don’t give a fuck about the economic impact on the country as has been demonstrated over the last few years where they have overseen whole sectors struggling with the effects of Brexit on top of the pandemic and war in Ukraine. It’s the first time in my lifetime that we have a government that exists not for the advancement and wellbeing of the country but solely for keeping themselves in power at the expense of everything else.

 

[halfmist]

After 10+ years of UK news outlets relying on 5 min vox pops normally with an emphasis on those disgruntled by the subject to comment, I am suprised anyone takes them as gospel.

And that goes anyway, ones that are pro my opinion or anti, there is a serious lack of in depth analysis anymore instead we have settled for a quick take commentary

So in your opinion, there will not be staff shortages in essential services and tough luck on the guy who will be put out of businesses due to the strike action or are they just the price that has to be paid.

 

[halfmist]

Whilst I have sympathy with the aims of the strikers, what’s different about this strike is that the government clearly want it to happen. What’s important to them is the creation of division because having one half of the population in conflict with the other half is how they see their best chance of retaining power by trying to be seen as on the side of the rail using public. Why else would the government constrain the operating companies negotiating position. The government obviously don’t give a fuck about the economic impact on the country as has been demonstrated over the last few years where they have overseen whole sectors struggling with the effects of Brexit on top of the pandemic and war in Ukraine. It’s the first time in my lifetime that we have a government that exists not for the advancement and wellbeing of the country but solely for keeping themselves in power at the expense of everything else.

The government put in constraints because they’re acting on behalf of the tax payer who will have to fund any settlement
If they just cave in to everyone’s demands to court popularity you may as well say form an orderly queue.

 

[BerkshireBlue]

It’s not about attitude it’s about reality.
They have held various conferences to try and level Company Corporation Tax in the recent past and they have all failed.
How would you get Russia, China, or any developing country to agree to this.
What happens over other taxes, particularly personal ones that are politically motivated.
You would never get Countries to agree when tax rates are often set on ideological grounds.

claptrap, it just needs to right people in the right room if China and Russia don't want to be involved then fine, No outside trade for them. they'll soon come around that actually a small percentage of tax on everyone is fine. Like I said if you think it's impossible then it's impossible for you in reality it is possible

 

[inbetween]

Nope I won’t complain. It’s a waste of time. The usual excuses are Covid and cut backs so I have heard them all before.
If we had a bottomless pit in Society bring all the changes on
However, we definitely probably disagree with what the problems are and how to cure them, but two thing I am sure is, it’s not all about money, or down to a particular political party

The critical error you are making is you are comparing business experience with that of running critical infrastructure but these two things are completely incompatible.

With respect I don't know which industry you are/were in but I'd bet that if your company went bust then it wouldn't matter. This however is public transport, it can't go bust and it cannot just be left to rot or somehow reduce because the impact is catastrophic. Trains are not limited to train drivers, you have maintenance people and people doing work on the lines for example that literally could save your life. Surely if you needed surgery you'd want the best paid and most experienced surgeon as opposed to the new lad on minimum wage?

I've seen this in the airlines where companies have been pressuring crews for years. Pilots are on very good money because the competition for pilots is fierce but they do like to chip away at their working conditions. In one very large airline they famously have fuel saving leaderboards where pilots are punished for taking too much fuel on a flight.... Remember that we're talking about aircraft, aircraft require fuel and they definitely always crash without it.

Critical infrastructure and especially safety critical infrastructure should not be treated this way and it definitely should not be subjected to business cost-cutting without good reason. When you get on a plane or train you expect the best trained and most highly paid people to take you there safely. They deserve every penny they need because we want the best people and they need to live their lives without stress so that they can do their jobs properly.

 

[halfmist]

claptrap, it just needs to right people in the right room if China and Russia don't want to be involved then fine, No outside trade for them. they'll soon come around that actually a small percentage of tax on everyone is fine. Like I said if you think it's impossible then it's impossible for you in reality it is possible

As someone who has spent the majority of his professional career in taxation including overseas double taxation agreements and how difficult they have been to get on a country by country basis believe me it is not claptrap.
I could recommend a couple of books which back up my case but they would be a bit more technical than just putting the right people, whoever they may be , in the right room.

 

[meltonblue]

The government put in constraints because they’re acting on behalf of the tax payer who will have to fund any settlement
If they just cave in to everyone’s demands to court popularity you may as well say form an orderly queue.

We’re a long way past thinking anything our current government does is actually acting on behalf of the tax payer surely, aside from very specific sections.

 

[urban genie]

So in your opinion, there will not be staff shortages in essential services and tough luck on the guy who will be put out of businesses due to the strike action or are they just the price that has to be paid.

Where have I voiced that opinion, don't twist my comments on the standards of journalism to suit your arguement.

I never said people wouldn't be affected, but I also never took a couple of 1 minute long commentaries as the overriding opinion of the genearal public and make statements that there is not support for this from joe public, mainly as I don't know how much of the populace support this and neither do you.

Vox pops are the worst kind of news journalism and not one I would use to base an arguement for my stance.

 

[Blue Maverick]

I love how they come out with moral narrative, every strike affects people in some moral way, fire service have had it loads, but no one takes striking lightly, firstly they lose money at these hard times secondly letting people down is another factor. The government are a set of twats, get that magic money tree out again Sunak otherwise there could well be a winter of discontent. I know the MPs have an independent pay review body I wonder how much increase they will get because they’ve been getting way above what other public sector workers have over recent years.
Double figure pay rises will be asked for and the private sector will be up in arms, greedy public sector, go get another job if you don’t like it narrative, I wonder how they would feel if many nurses took them up on that and went private or moved abroad and the waiting lists increase etc, but I suppose a good hand clap with pay their electricity bill!
The government could slash taxes on petrol etc to help out or from all that extra income increase wages across the board, the RMT is not the train drivers as they government are trying to push it’s the other low paid workers that are asking for a decent wage, by all accounts ministers are preventing the negotiations are they afraid should a decent agreement be made it will have a snowball effect within other industrie?

 

[urban genie]

I love how they come out with moral narrative, every strike affects people in some moral way, fire service have had it loads, but no one takes striking lightly, firstly they lose money at these hard times secondly letting people down is another factor. The government are a set of twats, get that magic money tree out again Sunak otherwise there could well be a winter of discontent. I know the MPs have an independent pay review body I wonder how much increase they will get because they’ve been getting way above what other public sector workers have over recent years.
Double figure pay rises will be asked for and the private sector will be up in arms, greedy public sector, go get another job if you don’t like it narrative, I wonder how they would feel if many nurses took them up on that and went private or moved abroad and the waiting lists increase etc, but I suppose a good hand clap with pay their electricity bill!
The government could slash taxes on petrol etc to help out or from all that extra income increase wages across the board, the RMT is not the train drivers as they government are trying to push it’s the other low paid workers that are asking for a decent wage, by all accounts ministers are preventing the negotiations are they afraid should a decent agreement be made it will have a snowball effect within other industrie?

Accordingto the ONS average total pay growth for the private sector was 8.2% in the private sector while for the public sector it was 1.6%

For the last 5 years I have had a 0.5%-1% increase, which after a lot of "negotiating" has for 3 years come not as a rise per hour bit a one off payment for the year, this normally has worked out about £20 extra a month, in escence less than a12p an hr rise .

I am also like most public sector workers on a pay band and at the top of it, so there is no next level pay I can move up to or increments or bonuses.

The myth peddled by many in power that everyone is having a good life working for the public serves brings shame on governments past and present.

 

[west didsblue]

The government put in constraints because they’re acting on behalf of the tax payer who will have to fund any settlement
If they just cave in to everyone’s demands to court popularity you may as well say form an orderly queue.

RMT workers are not public sector workers paid for by the taxpayer. The TOCs are private companies that get government payments for running services. During the pandemic they operated under Emergency Measures Agreements which effectively made TOC employees public sector workers. That arrangement ended in October 2021 and TOC employees are now fully back in the private sector (apart from a couple of franchises that are still in the public sector). Unlike other private companies the government are restricting how the TOCs operate which is why there is no prospect of an agreement.

 

[dave_blue12]

Whilst I have sympathy with the aims of the strikers, what’s different about this strike is that the government clearly want it to happen. What’s important to them is the creation of division because having one half of the population in conflict with the other half is how they see their best chance of retaining power by trying to be seen as on the side of the rail using public. Why else would the government constrain the operating companies negotiating position. The government obviously don’t give a fuck about the economic impact on the country as has been demonstrated over the last few years where they have overseen whole sectors struggling with the effects of Brexit on top of the pandemic and war in Ukraine. It’s the first time in my lifetime that we have a government that exists not for the advancement and wellbeing of the country but solely for keeping themselves in power at the expense of everything else.

You are absolutely correct. The Government are delighted with this strike and will have put the rail companies under pressure not to negotiate.

Divide and rule is the Tory motto. Oh and tell as many lies as possible.

 

[Vic]

Where have I voiced that opinion, don't twist my comments on the standards of journalism to suit your arguement.

I never said people wouldn't be affected, but I also never took a couple of 1 minute long commentaries as the overriding opinion of the genearal public and make statements that there is not support for this from joe public, mainly as I don't know how much of the populace support this and neither do you.

Vox pops are the worst kind of news journalism and not one I would use to base an arguement for my stance.

Maybe Joe Public doesn't grasp what the agenda is.

"Secret plan to close all railway ticket offices as strikes grip Britain... " (Sunday Times yesterday)

Most people rolling up at stations to buy a ticket would prefer to buy from the ticket office than use the machines, which can offer so many alternatives that it takes an age to get what you want.

 

[blueinsa]

In normal times I’d be against strike action but sadly these are not normal times and I can only foresee things getting even worse.

A message has to be sent to government that the public and workers are not going to stay silent whilst we get fucked over at the expense of what I see as corporate greed enabled by a morally corrupt government.

Right now I’m in favour of strikes and civil protest/action to ensure the millions of ordinary hard working citizens get a fair deal.