Shamima Begum

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

You have obviously not seen or read much about what this disgusting group have been involved in.

The comments of Dr. Joanna Cook and Rachel Briggs in the following piece (both researchers with impeccable credentials) are especially salient, as are those of Richard Walton:

The dilemma of Europe's returning female jihadis

This month, three Swedish women landed in Stockholm, expelled from Syria together with their children. Two of the women were arrested, one suspected of genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. Their children were immediately taken into custody.

euobserver.com

It is well-worth followers of this thread spending a minute or two reading this brief article, regardless of what one's stance is on Begum.

Additionally, here is a link to the best source I know of about ISIS and other terrorist activity.

Publications - ICSR

icsr.info

Of the ICSR members, Gina Vale is also someone to keep tabs on, as she too has recently authored an article specifically about Begum and the issues raised by her case. Shiraz Maher has also done so, but in an older piece for the New Statesman.

Both maintain active Twitter feeds, as does Joanna Cook.

When it comes to gangs, the Mexican cartels have often committed the most appalling and depraved acts of violence on some of those who have spoken out against them and random members of the public (described in graphic detail in Roberto Saviano's book ZeroZeroZero), ones that are certainly comparable to those perpetrated by ISIS members, though what this point of comparison might indicate and signify is something that I need further time to reflect on.

 

[Bigga]

The comments of Dr. Joanna Cook and Rachel Briggs in the following piece (both researchers with impeccable credentials) are especially salient, as are those of Richard Walton:

The dilemma of Europe's returning female jihadis

This month, three Swedish women landed in Stockholm, expelled from Syria together with their children. Two of the women were arrested, one suspected of genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. Their children were immediately taken into custody.

euobserver.com

It is well-worth followers of this thread spending a minute or two reading this brief article, regardless of what one's stance is on Begum.

Additionally, here is a link to the best source I know of about ISIS and other terrorist activity.

Publications - ICSR

icsr.info

Of the ICSR members, Gina Vale is also someone to keep tabs on, as she too has recently authored an article specifically about Begum and the issues raised by her case. Shiraz Maher has also done so, but in an older piece for the New Statesman.

Both maintain active Twitter feeds, as does Joanna Cook.

When it comes to gangs, the Mexican cartels have often committed the most appalling and depraved acts of violence on some of those who have spoken out against them and random members of the public (described in graphic detail in Roberto Saviano's book ZeroZeroZero), ones that are certainly comparable to those perpetrated by ISIS members, though what this point of comparison might indicate and signify is something that I need further time to reflect on.

Well, that was an excellent article (not that it would make others minds more expansive) and it echoes 90% of what I was saying and I'm no scholar.

What it takes is to see common sense in weighing up the pros and cons on the issue. One of the major things I disagreed with was the comparison of women playing a leading active role in other terrorist groups (Bader-Meinhoff being mentioned).

This is a false equivalency in relation to IS as there are NO leading women allowed to hold weapons of any kind (that included 'The White Wolf').

But, that aside, excellent stuff.

By the way, the only reason the 'gang' comparison was made was that I was looking at the correlation of violence, in thought or action, to join such violent groups domestically and internationally and yet, one is given a pass and a chance to rebuild their lives after rash decisions that affect others.

The only evidence had against Begum has been circumstantial from her own lips or being a mouthy teen, as it were.

But, it's comforting to know other Euro countries have acted or about to act in bringing their civilians back to face charges as should be done with Begum. I noted , as you guys will if you go back to the YT clip, it doesn't look like she's hopeful any more and this will just fester if left too long.

It's stupid, bring her back.

 

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

Hi Bigga, I would agree with the points you made in your previous post.

I expressed my own concerns about this issue back on page 50 of this thread in a very lengthy, somewhat rambling and tangential post (in case you are interested). Can't say that I am much further forward in that respect. Also said that I wouldn’t be returning to this thread back then and am already starting to regret having done so.

Any time I feel inclined to cut Begum some slack, I start to think about that Jordanian pilot who got burned to death inside a cage, of those Yazidi women who were forced to become sex slaves, about the Manchester Arena bombing and other terrorist atrocities inspired by Salafi-Jihadist theology, and whether Begum might have been a member of or tacitly approved of the actions of the all-female al-Khansaa brigade who went around administering punishments with what was known as 'the Biter' in ISIS territory.

On the other hand, I am not comfortable with someone being declared stateless and would still prefer her to be put on trial here.

As Shiraz Maher has pointed out, this has wider implications:

'...there is a broader issue here which goes far beyond security matters. Although it is illegal to make people stateless, the government has been extremely liberal in its interpretation of that rule. It has deemed that anyone who can potentially claim another nationality can be stripped of their British citizenship. This impacts the children of immigrants such as myself, all Jews, and anyone from Northern Ireland. For us, our citizenship is predicated on continued good behaviour, whereas for others, it exists in perpetuity. This is the precedent the UK has inadvertently set in its refusal to tackle the situation in Syria.'

On the other hand, as he mentions earlier in his article:

'That prospect [Begum's return] represented a nightmare scenario for the government. It argues that convictions against Islamic State (IS) suspects would be hard to secure and that the best approach, therefore, is to leave people where they are. It may be a crude tactic, but that’s the approach Whitehall currently favours.'

Full text here:

How the Shamima Begum case reveals British citizenship is a two-tiered system

The UK government lacks the means to address the cases of British citizens who have joined Islamic State in a secure way, so it has chosen to wash its hands of them.

www.newstatesman.com

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I'd do a better job in Gov than the knobs you have supported in power! You know, the ones that lie, lie, lie in order to stay in power?

You know, the ones that have fed you information about this girl, the ones that have seen "evidence" but are not going to show anyone else and weirdly, that "evidence" would not be enough to convict her, but keep her out.

I'll let you cobble that piece of logic together as you jog on.

As I said, thank Christ you and yours have been overruled, if you feel aggrieved about that, glue yourself to the nearest Police Station, or start a petition.

 

[Bigga]

As I said, thank Christ you and yours have been overruled, if you feel aggrieved about that, glue yourself to the nearest Police Station, or start a petition.

Luckily, cranks such as yourself, have the inability to read intelligent reasoning on the subject, such as what @ZenHalfTimeCrock has kindly posted.

It would, actually, require not being spoon fed your news by your stupid illogical gov on hearsay about a 15 year old.

You don't/ can't even present a decent (even half decent) argument based on anything factual besides Begum being a dick. Continue sucking the gov dick and don't question anything.

Those scales are handy upon thine eyes, eh?

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Luckily, cranks such as yourself, have the inability to read intelligent reasoning on the subject, such as what @ZenHalfTimeCrock has kindly posted.

It would, actually, require not being spoon fed your news by your stupid illogical gov on hearsay about a 15 year old.

You don't/ can't even present a decent (even half decent) argument based on anything factual besides Begum being a dick. Continue sucking the gov dick and don't question anything.

Those scales are handy upon thine eyes, eh?

For a supporter of ISIS members to call anyone a crank is
a stretch, even by the standards on here set occasionally.
No doubt 'I am not an ISIS supporter' will be the next nugget.
You're description of her being just a Dick, a harmless naive
child, is in itself wide eyed credulity on steroids.
I'll leave you to it pal.

 

[Bigga]

Hi Bigga, I would agree with the points you made in your previous post.

I expressed my own concerns about this issue back on page 50 of this thread in a very lengthy, somewhat rambling and tangential post (in case you are interested). Can't say that I am much further forward in that respect. Also said that I wouldn’t be returning to this thread back then and am already starting to regret having done so.

Any time I feel inclined to cut Begum some slack, I start to think about that Jordanian pilot who got burned to death inside a cage, of those Yazidi women who were forced to become sex slaves, about the Manchester Arena bombing and other terrorist atrocities inspired by Salafi-Jihadist theology, and whether Begum might have been a member of or tacitly approved of the actions of the all-female al-Khansaa brigade who went around administering punishments with what was known as 'the Biter' in ISIS territory.

On the other hand, I am not comfortable with someone being declared stateless and would still prefer her to be put on trial here.

As Shiraz Maher has pointed out, this has wider implications:

'...there is a broader issue here which goes far beyond security matters. Although it is illegal to make people stateless, the government has been extremely liberal in its interpretation of that rule. It has deemed that anyone who can potentially claim another nationality can be stripped of their British citizenship. This impacts the children of immigrants such as myself, all Jews, and anyone from Northern Ireland. For us, our citizenship is predicated on continued good behaviour, whereas for others, it exists in perpetuity. This is the precedent the UK has inadvertently set in its refusal to tackle the situation in Syria.'

On the other hand, as he mentions earlier in his article:

'That prospect [Begum's return] represented a nightmare scenario for the government. It argues that convictions against Islamic State (IS) suspects would be hard to secure and that the best approach, therefore, is to leave people where they are. It may be a crude tactic, but that’s the approach Whitehall currently favours.'

Full text here:

How the Shamima Begum case reveals British citizenship is a two-tiered system

The UK government lacks the means to address the cases of British citizens who have joined Islamic State in a secure way, so it has chosen to wash its hands of them.

www.newstatesman.com

Again, not anything I can think of to question or disagree with, as a whole except for this bit:

Any time I feel inclined to cut Begum some slack, I start to think about that Jordanian pilot who got burned to death inside a cage, of those Yazidi women who were forced to become sex slaves, about the Manchester Arena bombing and other terrorist atrocities inspired by Salafi-Jihadist theology, and whether Begum might have been a member of or tacitly approved of the actions of the all-female al-Khansaa brigade who went around administering punishments with what was known as 'the Biter' in ISIS territory.

All these things are worthy to think of but, logically, breaking it down would be where Begum would, possibly, stand amongst these comparisons.

Sex slave/ rape? I cannot recall her complaining of such, which means she was compliant in sexual behaviour (not that much of a surprise at 15 years old onwards). The Arena bombing? Sure, I think she's scum in her, then, views as a child but I'm not sure if I would give her a pass on that, myself. Having said that, we all say stupid and regretful things and having seen her own flesh and blood die 3 times, perhaps her views have changed.

Lastly, I have no recourse for discussion on "might have" arguments. This is something I've been arguing about with some of the thread contributors. Not you, of course, but hearsay is enough for them to convict anyone of any potential crime, accurate or not and no matter how much someone can dismantle their collective pearl clutching with reasonable logic.

 

[Bigga]

For a supporter of ISIS members to call anyone a crank is
a stretch, even by the standards on here set occasionally.
No doubt 'I am not an ISIS supporter' will be the next nugget.
You're description of her being just a Dick, a harmless naive
child, is in itself wide eyed credulity on steroids.
I'll leave you to it pal.

Haha!!

So, you think by predicating your 'argument' with "I'm not an IS supporter" as a way of creating an illogical 'check mate', you win a discussion based on logic?

Did you get that? Run it over again in your head what I said.

And, actually, since your response to me was pretty immediate, I daresay you skipped Zen's post (not a surprise or we wouldn't be at this point) and my following response in not condoning Begum's retort on the Arena bombing.

Would we be here if you had bothered reading?

In fact, you'd have a more cogent argument armed with new information and questions based upon it. Not going to hold my breathe as you're a bit dim, it seems, and in light of you skipping over the points of the Gov lying and reacting for populist voting reasons, I daresay you're right winged enough to believe what they present at any point.

Skip away, fella.

 

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

Sex slave/ rape? I cannot recall her complaining of such.

She hasn’t. I was thinking only of the Yazidi women who were.

Apart from that, again I find myself in agreement with much of your post.

Will once again drop out of this thread now as I prefer to defer to what the folks at the ICSR are saying. Given that their assessments are based on research carried out in the field, on interviews with ex-ISIS members, for example, and their publications are dispassionate and aspire to objectivity rather than uninformed emotivism, they are probably better placed to make judgment calls about characters like Begum.

 

[BobKowalski]

As Shiraz Maher has pointed out, this has wider implications:

'...there is a broader issue here which goes far beyond security matters. Although it is illegal to make people stateless, the government has been extremely liberal in its interpretation of that rule. It has deemed that anyone who can potentially claim another nationality can be stripped of their British citizenship. This impacts the children of immigrants such as myself, all Jews, and anyone from Northern Ireland. For us, our citizenship is predicated on continued good behaviour, whereas for others, it exists in perpetuity. This is the precedent the UK has inadvertently set in its refusal to tackle the situation in Syria.'

This, for me, was the most important aspect. To mandate that a substantial swathe of British citizens can only maintain citizenship if they meet a Govt’s criteria of what constitutes ‘good behaviour’ is simply wrong.

This is a far bigger concern than Begum herself.

 

[Vicious111]

There are plenty of criminals, some in our government, that have committed far worse crimes.

A 15 year old girl, although obviously clearly capable of rational thought, she was still groomed by a professional and I'm sure very highly persuasive organisation. If they can convince people to blow themselves to bits then it goes to show how strongly these fuckers can prey on people.

Personally, I think by not letting her back in, we set a poor presidence for others in future positions. We need to show compassion so that Western culture is always deemed more appealing than vicious religious ideologies. She will also be made a form of example of how terrorist organisations are not the answer. She would be more beneficial here teaching young Islamic girls against such grooming, for that's exactly what it is.

 

[Nightmare Walking]

I’m sure I could refer to Bluemoon for faultless legal opinion any time of the day or night

That's a rabbit hole you will never escape from. It makes for an interesting and sometimes very fun journey :-D

 

[Mike D]

For a young girl who was groomed radicalised and abused, there's an awful lot so called experts on her.

 

[journolud]

This will be interesting. Wonder if it will change any body’s opinion or at least challenge them

Shamima Begum the subject of new BBC Two film and BBC Sounds podcast

A landmark documentary for BBC Two and BBC iPlayer and 10-part audio series for Radio 5 Live and BBC Sounds will explore the story of Shamima Begum.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Brooklands Blue]

There are plenty of criminals, some in our government, that have committed far worse crimes.

A 15 year old girl, although obviously clearly capable of rational thought, she was still groomed by a professional and I'm sure very highly persuasive organisation. If they can convince people to blow themselves to bits then it goes to show how strongly these fuckers can prey on people.

Personally, I think by not letting her back in, we set a poor presidence for others in future positions. We need to show compassion so that Western culture is always deemed more appealing than vicious religious ideologies. She will also be made a form of example of how terrorist organisations are not the answer. She would be more beneficial here teaching young Islamic girls against such grooming, for that's exactly what it is.

You'll have to let us know which members of the government ran off to join a 7th century death cult which committed industrial scale murder and rapes. I'm no Tory or defender of them btw.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

This will be interesting. Wonder if it will change any body’s opinion or at least challenge them

Shamima Begum the subject of new BBC Two film and BBC Sounds podcast

A landmark documentary for BBC Two and BBC iPlayer and 10-part audio series for Radio 5 Live and BBC Sounds will explore the story of Shamima Begum.

www.bbc.co.uk

Nobody’s opinion is likely to change on her, nor should it.

Where the discussion has always been is around whether we should take her back and prosecute her for her crimes.

Some say we should, others are happy to ”break”/bend international law and leave her “stateless”.

 

[Winchester]

Nobody’s opinion is likely to change on her, nor should it.

Where the discussion has always been is around whether we should take her back and prosecute her for her crimes.

Some say we should, others are happy to ”break”/bend international law and leave her “stateless”.

Id rather watch re runs of the test card

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Id rather watch re runs of the test card

This then begs the question “Are you happy with us breaking international law?”

 

[WestGorton]

Whatever she is, she is British and should return for whatever that fate is.

 

[Winchester]

This then begs the question “Are you happy with us

This then begs the question “Are you happy with us breaking international law?”

I couldnt care less She knew what she was getting into