Question Time

I know I probably live in an idealistic world, in my head, but paying farmers to not grow wheat just seems ludicrous.
To import beef when we have fantastic arable land and a perfect climate for them is nuts.
We are surrounded by oil and gas, to not use it, especially now, is economic suicide is it not?
Brexit was about independence for me, and if we had prepared properly, it would have worked.
But like I said, I'm no expert, but I feel that a bit of forward planning wouldn't have gone ammiss
Brexit was always a populist RW initiative to give the right of the tory party a boost over the moderate centrists (Cameron etc). It was built on lies to win a referendum in 16 and then an election in 19 and here we are with the rabid right wing in control of the tory party. Mission accomplished.

There was never any planning as to plan you would have to first accept the reality of it and even now the Tory leadership contenders are refusing to be drawn into any discussion on it. The reality is our borders are a mess (northern Ireland and with mainland europe), the BJ deal requires us to do customs checks and we are refusing to do them in the Irish sea and we are not even doing them with goods heading over from Dover as we already have massive queues and businesses are suffering.

The tories are refusing to engage with the reality of the shit they have created. That means inevitably someone down the line will have to clean up the mess. None of the current tories will mention it as its to toxic an issue. But at some point as a nation we have to accept it is a disaster and we have to go back to the drawing board (either soft brexit or rejoin), polls alreday showing it moving that way.
 
I'm not right or left wing.
I just think that there could have been better plans in place for these post brexit times.
I fully admit to being an idealist, and I'm a poor armchair politician.
But I'm not alone I'm sure ;-)
Forcing people to do work they don’t want to do away from their family and friends will never be a popular policy, It’s the king of thing Suella Braverman tried to put forward and she’s been binned.

At some point, I hope that the people who think we are “full up“ realise we aren’t and that infrastructure is struggling due to 12 years of underfunding.

If we had more schools, GP practices, hospitals
, public transport etc. we wouldn’t feel we were full. The lack of these amenities makes people feel they can’t get help.
 
Brexit was always a populist RW initiative to give the right of the tory party a boost over the moderate centrists (Cameron etc). It was built on lies to win a referendum in 16 and then an election in 19 and here we are with the rabid right wing in control of the tory party. Mission accomplished.

There was never any planning as to plan you would have to first accept the reality of it and even now the Tory leadership contenders are refusing to be drawn into any discussion on it. The reality is our borders are a mess (northern Ireland and with mainland europe), the BJ deal requires us to do customs checks and we are refusing to do them in the Irish sea and we are not even doing them with goods heading over from Dover as we already have massive queues and businesses are suffering.

The tories are refusing to engage with the reality of the shit they have created. That means inevitably someone down the line will have to clean up the mess. None of the current tories will mention it as its to toxic an issue. But at some point as a nation we have to accept it is a disaster and we have to go back to the drawing board (either soft brexit or rejoin), polls alreday showing it moving that way.

absolutely - you could change the word Brexit for Covid in that and just highlight another fuck up they are all just ignoring
 
Brexit was always a populist RW initiative to give the right of the tory party a boost over the moderate centrists (Cameron etc). It was built on lies to win a referendum in 16 and then an election in 19 and here we are with the rabid right wing in control of the tory party. Mission accomplished.

There was never any planning as to plan you would have to first accept the reality of it and even now the Tory leadership contenders are refusing to be drawn into any discussion on it. The reality is our borders are a mess (northern Ireland and with mainland europe), the BJ deal requires us to do customs checks and we are refusing to do them in the Irish sea and we are not even doing them with goods heading over from Dover as we already have massive queues and businesses are suffering.

The tories are refusing to engage with the reality of the shit they have created. That means inevitably someone down the line will have to clean up the mess. None of the current tories will mention it as its to toxic an issue. But at some point as a nation we have to accept it is a disaster and we have to go back to the drawing board (either soft brexit or rejoin), polls alreday showing it moving that way.
Always happy to be educated, and if its done in a non patronising way, all the more appreciated.
I struggle with politics, I just go with my instincts.
Cheers
 
Forcing people to do work they don’t want to do away from their family and friends will never be a popular policy, It’s the king of thing Suella Braverman tried to put forward and she’s been binned.

At some point, I hope that the people who think we are “full up“ realise we aren’t and that infrastructure is struggling due to 12 years of underfunding.

If we had more schools, GP practices, hospitals
, public transport etc. we wouldn’t feel we were full. The lack of these amenities makes people feel they can’t get help.
Yes I agree, forcing people to work is wrong, I should have worded it a little better, I admit.
The rest of your post makes perfect sense.
 
I know I probably live in an idealistic world, in my head, but paying farmers to not grow wheat just seems ludicrous.
To import beef when we have fantastic arable land and a perfect climate for them is nuts.
We are surrounded by oil and gas, to not use it, especially now, is economic suicide is it not?
Brexit was about independence for me, and if we had prepared properly, it would have worked.
But like I said, I'm no expert, but I feel that a bit of forward planning wouldn't have gone ammiss

Brexit is the new communism - it would have worked if only we had prepared properly or done it right.

Brexit was predicated on the basis that we would get a better economic deal with the EU on the outside than as a member. That was never going to happen and did not happen.

Brexit won’t work because it was based on a false premise. For example, even Labour talks about making Brexit work better - yet Brexit means higher trade barriers with the EU, so do Labour want even higher trade barriers? No, they want lower barriers which is the opposite of Brexit. They also talk about regulatory divergence making Brexit work, but regulatory divergence means higher trade barriers, so we are back where we started.

Our biggest problem is not Brexit per se, but the fact we cannot be honest about it, so we have to keep pretending and believing because it’s pretty much all we got.

You are right, forward planning would be great, but that would mean acknowledging reality and we are not ready to do that yet.
 
Brexit is the new communism - it would have worked if only we had prepared properly or done it right.

Brexit was predicated on the basis that we would get a better economic deal with the EU on the outside than as a member. That was never going to happen and did not happen.

Brexit won’t work because it was based on a false premise. For example, even Labour talks about making Brexit work better - yet Brexit means higher trade barriers with the EU, so do Labour want even higher trade barriers? No, they want lower barriers which is the opposite of Brexit. They also talk about regulatory divergence making Brexit work, but regulatory divergence means higher trade barriers, so we are back where we started.

Our biggest problem is not Brexit per se, but the fact we cannot be honest about it, so we have to keep pretending and believing because it’s pretty much all we got.

You are right, forward planning would be great, but that would mean acknowledging reality and we are not ready to do that yet.
Fine post.
Genuinely interested on how this could've been done right?
 
You can drill as much of 'our' oil (and gas) as you like, but it will be sold on the open market at the world price, not directed to the UK at a lower price.

The only way to change this is to seize assets and work under a system of extreme socialism, far left of Corbyn - who people felt was 'too left-wing'.

My problem with so many post-Brexit arguments is they are incoherent and inconsistent with the reality of the economic system 'we' have 'chosen'.

It's the equivalent of wanting to be a City fan but wearing a red scarf and standing in the Stretford End. While chanting for Chelsea.

In fact, much of the Brexit 'argument' amounts to wishful thinking. That's the trouble with it. It may fit with some people's dream/fantasy but it can never be delivered in the desired format.

As the Royalist General said to Prince Rupert about his battle plan for Marston Moor: 'It's all very well on paper, my lord, but there is no such thing in the field.'
 
You can drill as much of 'our' oil (and gas) as you like, but it will be sold on the open market at the world price, not directed to the UK at a lower price.

The only way to change this is to seize assets and work under a system of extreme socialism, far left of Corbyn - who people felt was 'too left-wing'.

My problem with so many post-Brexit arguments is they are incoherent and inconsistent with the reality of the economic system 'we' have 'chosen'.

It's the equivalent of wanting to be a City fan but wearing a red scarf and standing in the Stretford End. While chanting for Chelsea.

In fact, much of the Brexit 'argument' amounts to wishful thinking. That's the trouble with it. It may fit with some people's dream/fantasy but it can never be delivered in the desired format.

As the Royalist General said to Prince Rupert about his battle plan for Marston Moor: [b{'It's all very well on paper, my lord, but there is no such thing in the field.'[/b]
Love that line & works across many fields (pun not intended).
 
You can drill as much of 'our' oil (and gas) as you like, but it will be sold on the open market at the world price, not directed to the UK at a lower price.

The only way to change this is to seize assets and work under a system of extreme socialism, far left of Corbyn - who people felt was 'too left-wing'.

My problem with so many post-Brexit arguments is they are incoherent and inconsistent with the reality of the economic system 'we' have 'chosen'.

It's the equivalent of wanting to be a City fan but wearing a red scarf and standing in the Stretford End. While chanting for Chelsea.

In fact, much of the Brexit 'argument' amounts to wishful thinking. That's the trouble with it. It may fit with some people's dream/fantasy but it can never be delivered in the desired format.

As the Royalist General said to Prince Rupert about his battle plan for Marston Moor: 'It's all very well on paper, my lord, but there is no such thing in the field.'
In answer to your first paragraph, not if we refine it ourself and sell it to ourselves. That's a government decision not to do that. Given the current situation, I'd say we should have been doing this year's ago. Why can't we do this?
It's also a government policy to import grain, when we are perfectly capable of growing our own. Why?
And beef.
And steel. We can't make anything without it. Why does it come from abroad when we can refine it ourselves?
We can be independent, we still have the skills, the will, and the enthusiasm, we just don't have the suitable leadership to achieve it.
Sad times
 
Brexit is the new communism - it would have worked if only we had prepared properly or done it right.

Brexit was predicated on the basis that we would get a better economic deal with the EU on the outside than as a member. That was never going to happen and did not happen.

Brexit won’t work because it was based on a false premise. For example, even Labour talks about making Brexit work better - yet Brexit means higher trade barriers with the EU, so do Labour want even higher trade barriers? No, they want lower barriers which is the opposite of Brexit. They also talk about regulatory divergence making Brexit work, but regulatory divergence means higher trade barriers, so we are back where we started.

Our biggest problem is not Brexit per se, but the fact we cannot be honest about it, so we have to keep pretending and believing because it’s pretty much all we got.

You are right, forward planning would be great, but that would mean acknowledging reality and we are not ready to do that yet.
I don't agree that brexit is the new communism, but I can see your reasoning to come to that conclusion.
It shouldn't be anything like that in reality. It was all about independence, freedom of trade, and standing alone as a world class business, ready to trade, giving it the Billy big bollox if you will. Smoke and mirrors, never a good idea long term. To put it to a referendum wasn't really the best idea in the world, but it seemed democratic at the time, even though quite a few now have voters regret, as they say.
Unfortunately the rest of Europe sighed, and had a siesta. And I don't blame them. We've become a bit of a joke to them.
I'm not fucking laughing, and what this country has become is down to the voters, 52 % of which appeared to be thick as pig shit.
 
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In answer to your first paragraph, not if we refine it ourself and sell it to ourselves. That's a government decision not to do that. Given the current situation, I'd say we should have been doing this year's ago. Why can't we do this?
It's also a government policy to import grain, when we are perfectly capable of growing our own. Why?
And beef.
And steel. We can't make anything without it. Why does it come from abroad when we can refine it ourselves?
We can be independent, we still have the skills, the will, and the enthusiasm, we just don't have the suitable leadership to achieve it.
Sad times
There is a shortage of labour, both skilled and unskilled, with enormous political reluctance to accept we need immigrants. This is why crops are rotting in the field as we speak, and why, for example, it is increasingly difficult to find a GP.

Capital for the refineries, steel mills, etc. Where is it coming from? The private sector in this country is extraordinarily reluctant to invest, except where there is a short-term profit. This has been a problem for decades. Wishful thinking will not change that. Do you want the state to make the investment? That's left-wing and scary. This government will certainly not go down that road. I very much doubt Labour will. They would get too much grief from the media if they tried.

You must also consider the Law of Comparative Advantage. This is a complex piece of economic doctrine, but in simple terms it is always advantageous to trade with other countries. Some countries are simply better placed to do certain things more efficiently than we are. So we are better putting our resources into areas where we are clearly ahead of the field and exchanging the value for imports.

(At a personal level, most of us don't do all our own plumbing, electrical work, and dentistry, because it is simpler and better to employ specialists to do these things and pay with them with the money we earn by our skills in other areas. It's no different. If I spend 10 days doing a plumbing job that a plumber can do in 30 minutes that's a gross waste of resources. The Law of Comparative Advantage is this on a national scale.)

You appear to confuse 'independence' with 'autarky'. Autarky is a bad and failed economic system. There are no fully-autarkic nations in the modern world, as even the most isolated have some level of participation in international trade and receive outside support or aid. North Korea and Nazi Germany are two examples of nations that have pursued a policy of autarky.

Far from developing 'independence', which is a chimaera at best, we should be developing interdependence and, this is key, focusing on developing those areas of the economy that are most profitable and in which we are demonstrably very good. What really holds us back is the aforesaid lack of investment. This in part is caused by the national obsession with pumping almost all private resources into housing, not industry.
 
We need to grow are own grain and vegetables. Get the workshy cunts to pick them, or no benefits.
Open back up that nuclear plant that was closed.
The North Sea is full of oil. Let's drill it and refine it, and sell it to us at a fair price.
Brexit has been a failure,
We could be self sufficient .

Are you a regular member of the audience?
 
There is a shortage of labour, both skilled and unskilled, with enormous political reluctance to accept we need immigrants. This is why crops are rotting in the field as we speak, and why, for example, it is increasingly difficult to find a GP.

Capital for the refineries, steel mills, etc. Where is it coming from? The private sector in this country is extraordinarily reluctant to invest, except where there is a short-term profit. This has been a problem for decades. Wishful thinking will not change that. Do you want the state to make the investment? That's left-wing and scary. This government will certainly not go down that road. I very much doubt Labour will. They would get too much grief from the media if they tried.

You must also consider the Law of Comparative Advantage. This is a complex piece of economic doctrine, but in simple terms it is always advantageous to trade with other countries. Some countries are simply better placed to do certain things more efficiently than we are. So we are better putting our resources into areas where we are clearly ahead of the field and exchanging the value for imports.

(At a personal level, most of us don't do all our own plumbing, electrical work, and dentistry, because it is simpler and better to employ specialists to do these things and pay with them with the money we earn by our skills in other areas. It's no different. If I spend 10 days doing a plumbing job that a plumber can do in 30 minutes that's a gross waste of resources. The Law of Comparative Advantage is this on a national scale.)

You appear to confuse 'independence' with 'autarky'. Autarky is a bad and failed economic system. There are no fully-autarkic nations in the modern world, as even the most isolated have some level of participation in international trade and receive outside support or aid. North Korea and Nazi Germany are two examples of nations that have pursued a policy of autarky.

Far from developing 'independence', which is a chimaera at best, we should be developing interdependence and, this is key, focusing on developing those areas of the economy that are most profitable and in which we are demonstrably very good. What really holds us back is the aforesaid lack of investment. This in part is caused by the national obsession with pumping almost all private resources into housing, not industry.
Great post, certainly got me to have a think, which is a good thing.
Thanks
 

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