How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

Brexit is now really a sunk cost fallacy were Johnson - JRM and the rest are so invested in Brexit I don't think they can see the damage it is doing and will do............. they are just ploughing on and done with any truths other than their own truths that they are right.........
 
Gabriel said:
And the Liberal Democrats should have made legislating it a condition of their forming a coalition with the Conservatives in 2010, not having a referendum. In both cases, Labour and the Liberal Democrats were victims of their own hubris. They are blinded by the here and now and think their current success is somehow permanent.
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1997 Labour Party Manifesto -

The full text of all Labour Party manifestos from 1900 to the present.
www.labour-party.org.uk

It wasn't the case. The stuff they promised, House of Lords reform, devolved power to Scotland and Wales, City Mayors - all happened.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:




So we are entering phases 4 and 5 - Frantic search for the guilty and punishment of the innocent.
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In breaking news just in. Rees Mogg blames Dilyn the Jack Russell for the state of the economy, the shitstain that is Brexit, the wasted billions of Tory misspend and the war in Ukraine and it’s effects on living standards in the UK. He is also thought to be responsible for the destruction of the NHS and many other great British institutions.
He is though, absolved from the destruction of English football which is purely down to gods own.

These Tory fuckers will rewrite history before our eyes.
 
Corky said:

1997 Labour Party Manifesto -

The full text of all Labour Party manifestos from 1900 to the present.
www.labour-party.org.uk

It wasn't the case. The stuff they promised, House of Lords reform, devolved power to Scotland and Wales, City Mayors - all happened.
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This is the point to which I was referring:
  • We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons. An independent commission on voting systems will be appointed early to recommend a proportional alternative to the first-past-the-post system.
 
Gabriel said:
This is the point to which I was referring:
  • We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons. An independent commission on voting systems will be appointed early to recommend a proportional alternative to the first-past-the-post system.
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I’m struggling to see how anyone can justify our 19th century voting system, given what it has produced in recent years and the shocking standard of politicians that we are subject to today. One party gets around 40% of the vote in a GE and they can do what the fuck they want for the next five years - and fuck everyone else.


Around a tenth of the constituencies in the land determine who forms the government. The rest are a fait accompli where most people’s votes don’t matter.

How is that democratic? It certainly isn’t working anymore. The system is completely broken.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
I’m struggling to see how anyone can justify our 19th century voting system, given what it has produced in recent years and the shocking standard of politicians that was are subject to today. One party gets around 40% of the vote in a GE and they can do what the fuck they want for the next five years - and fuck everyone else.


Around a tenth of the constituencies in the land determine who forms the government. The rest are a fait accompli where most people’s votes don’t matter.

How is that democratic? It certainly isn’t working anymore. The system is completely broken.
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Concur. It’s not the panacea to all of the country’s ills, but a fairer and more representative system would arguably stop the country from lurching from one extreme to another. One criticism would be that it can lead to endless coalitions and unseemly horse trading, but It also serves to anchor the country in the centre and would mean that small and steady progress would become the norm. A professional and respected civil service would also keep the country ticking over while coalitions form. Another criticism would be that it gives a platform to the more extreme views of society, whereas the current system excludes them. But that just allows people to pretend such views are marginal and not representative, yet given what has befallen the country in recent years, it might have been preferable to have had those views incorporated and debated in an open Parliament.
 
Gabriel said:
Concur. It’s not the panacea to all of the country’s ills, but a fairer and more representative system would arguably stop the country from lurching from one extreme to another. One criticism would be that it can lead to endless coalitions and unseemly horse trading, but It also serves to anchor the country in the centre and would mean that small and steady progress would become the norm. A professional and respected civil service would also keep the country ticking over while coalitions form. Another criticism would be that it gives a platform to the more extreme views of society, whereas the current system excludes them. But that just allows people to pretend such views are marginal and not representative, yet given what has befallen the country in recent years, it might have been preferable to have had those views incorporated and debated in an open Parliament.
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I would go with an elected upper house (of lords) of say 500 members where they are appointed based on a percentage gained in a FPTP GE. Not a special or separate vote but the main vote.

If the greens got 5% of the GE vote probably 0 or 1 seat in the HOC but 25 members of the lords, (5% of 500).
They would nominate from published list of their candidates.

Would mean that people more likely to vote for minority and not see it as a wasted vote.
Would also give a moderating view on the HOC based on fairer representation.

Could be phased in with current lords being cut by 500 keeping the bishops and hereditary members to keep it an uncontentious transition, but not replaced as they die.
 
I don’t even think the loss of trade has been the most damaging aspect of it, it’s what it’s done domestically that’s far worse and will take even longer to undo.

We’re about to be on our fourth PM in just over six years despite having the same party running the government the entire time. That statement on its own shows how damaging it’s been, let alone the erosion on our civic liberties or the undermining of the rule of law we’ve allowed them to do as the key supporters have been allowed to take control across the board.

Brexit is not a policy, it never really has been. It’s an ideology that has enabled some of the very worst elements in our political elite to unleash policies that threaten the very core of what I would have thought would have made people proud of being British in the first place.

The issue is it’s so deep rooted as an ideology (just listen to some of the leadership debates as an example) that we’re nowhere near finished with the damage it’s going to cause, let alone on the road to any form of recovery.

The thing that still sticks in my mind is Goves statement of people “having had enough of experts”. We’re still in the world where a vast number of people listen to politicians and journalists more than they do experts or academics and I do worry just how bad the damage has to be before that changes.
 
meltonblue said:
I don’t even think the loss of trade has been the most damaging aspect of it, it’s what it’s done domestically that’s far worse and will take even longer to undo.

We’re about to be on our fourth PM in just over six years despite having the same party running the government the entire time. That statement on its own shows how damaging it’s been, let alone the erosion on our civic liberties or the undermining of the rule of law we’ve allowed them to do as the key supporters have been allowed to take control across the board.

Brexit is not a policy, it never really has been. It’s an ideology that has enabled some of the very worst elements in our political elite to unleash policies that threaten the very core of what I would have thought would have made people proud of being British in the first place.

The issue is it’s so deep rooted as an ideology (just listen to some of the leadership debates as an example) that we’re nowhere near finished with the damage it’s going to cause, let alone on the road to any form of recovery.

The thing that still sticks in my mind is Goves statement of people “having had enough of experts”. We’re still in the world where a vast number of people listen to politicians and journalists more than they do experts or academics and I do worry just how bad the damage has to be before that changes.
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So devastatingly true.
The fuck has been unleashed here.
 
meltonblue said:
I don’t even think the loss of trade has been the most damaging aspect of it, it’s what it’s done domestically that’s far worse and will take even longer to undo.

We’re about to be on our fourth PM in just over six years despite having the same party running the government the entire time. That statement on its own shows how damaging it’s been, let alone the erosion on our civic liberties or the undermining of the rule of law we’ve allowed them to do as the key supporters have been allowed to take control across the board.

Brexit is not a policy, it never really has been. It’s an ideology that has enabled some of the very worst elements in our political elite to unleash policies that threaten the very core of what I would have thought would have made people proud of being British in the first place.

The issue is it’s so deep rooted as an ideology (just listen to some of the leadership debates as an example) that we’re nowhere near finished with the damage it’s going to cause, let alone on the road to any form of recovery.

The thing that still sticks in my mind is Goves statement of people “having had enough of experts”. We’re still in the world where a vast number of people listen to politicians and journalists more than they do experts or academics and I do worry just how bad the damage has to be before that changes.
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A more general observation about life is that one should always try and avoid scenarios that could unleash unpredictable patterns and chaos as much as possible. Extracting ourself from a multi-lateral agreement that had evolved for fifty years was always going to be painful, as pretty much any divorce is. The reckless lack of consideration for this, that so many people displayed, is the thing that astonishes me the most. For me, extracting ourselves from this imperfect arrangement was never going to be remotely worth the mither.

Not even fucking close.
 
meltonblue said:
I don’t even think the loss of trade has been the most damaging aspect of it, it’s what it’s done domestically that’s far worse and will take even longer to undo.

We’re about to be on our fourth PM in just over six years despite having the same party running the government the entire time. That statement on its own shows how damaging it’s been, let alone the erosion on our civic liberties or the undermining of the rule of law we’ve allowed them to do as the key supporters have been allowed to take control across the board.

Brexit is not a policy, it never really has been. It’s an ideology that has enabled some of the very worst elements in our political elite to unleash policies that threaten the very core of what I would have thought would have made people proud of being British in the first place.

The issue is it’s so deep rooted as an ideology (just listen to some of the leadership debates as an example) that we’re nowhere near finished with the damage it’s going to cause, let alone on the road to any form of recovery.

The thing that still sticks in my mind is Goves statement of people “having had enough of experts”. We’re still in the world where a vast number of people listen to politicians and journalists more than they do experts or academics and I do worry just how bad the damage has to be before that changes.
Click to expand...
we are not even at the end of the beginning.
 
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