How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

I’d believed for a while a federal UK would head of any prospect of an independence issue, in all the devolved areas, I think now though Brexit and this particular governments version of Brexit have killed off, for now anyway, any prospect of such a solution.

I agree to an extent. The issue is brexit and this particular governments version of it doesn’t fill me with confidence that independence will be particularly good either though as the ideal relationship is pretty close to the one they turned their back on with the EU.

The best scenario for independence being as successful as possible was pre brexit and both parties being part of the EU.
 
You are getting all excited and sweary.

What part of me saying very clearly absolutely Scotland has the right to decide did you miss?

Me wanting a different outcome to you should not be twisted into me deciding it’s not happening.
Only questions now are will they get another anytime soon and will the answer be different? I hope they don’t and if they do, the answer the same
 
safeguarding the UK's national security by countering terrorism and weapons proliferation, and working to reduce conflict. building the UK's prosperity by increasing exports and investment, opening markets, ensuring access to resources, and promoting sustainable global growth.

Our foreign policy objectives.

Sounds a reasonable policy.

Are we getting it right? Not at the moment re trade but I’m with you on that, brexit is a disaster as is it’s handling by this incompetent government.

Afghanistan was a pointless waste of lives for all concerned but it pre dates this government. Not sure if it’s relevance here?
 
“The debate we are engaged in as a nation is about the future of all of us lucky enough to live in this diverse and vibrant country. It is a rare and precious moment in the history of Scotland - a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way.”

Guess who and when?

It doesn't mean what you think it does.

This is the same trick the Tories pulled with Liam Byrne's note at the treasury. Taking some out of context and turning it into a dishonest meme may be persuasive but it doesn't change the facts.


 
It doesn't mean what you think it does.

Thanks but you and some website doesn’t get to decide that.

Rambling on and on about the Tories as if to paint me with the same brush is a bit boring as well. I’m capable of independent thought and it’s a tactic that won’t work I’m afraid.

It was a once in a generation vote, as was the brexit vote.

Can we have more on both issues? Absolutely we can, no problems whatsoever.
 
It’s immigration policy. It’s abhorrent. I hope it fails miserably. I’m no longer arguing with you about it in this thread.

You could make the same argument about trade, weapons exports, war, agreements with other countries to relax visa restrictions.

It is part of foreign policy, the UK has waved the carrot of relaxation of visa rules for Rwandan nationals travelling to the UK.

Anything that involves diplomats officials and politicians from one country talking to each other is in the realm of foreign policy.

I know that you haven't agreed with this policy, as far as I can recall you haven't changed your stance since it was announced.
 
Thanks but you and some website doesn’t get to decide that.

Rambling on and on about the Tories as if to paint me with the same brush is a bit boring as well. I’m capable of independent thought and it’s a tactic that won’t work I’m afraid.

It was a once in a generation vote, as was the brexit vote.

Can we have more on both issues? Absolutely we can, no problems whatsoever.

But Alex Salmond couldn't promise that so even if he had it isn't worth anything. And any promise is subject to some basic conditions.

In order for such a promise to be binding and concrete Scotland would have to be sovereign, but they aren't. All the powers Scotland has are devolved from Westminster and can be taken away in the same way they were gifted.

It’s a circular argument that makes no sense to say that the SNP promised no second referendum for a generation when they have to ask for permission from Westminster to hold one.
 
I assume you meant good things, not things like Brexit.

Free orange juice. Decades of free health care. Bus pass.

But then I vote for politicians who want to change other people's lives for the better. And frankly that seems to be where we differ. You're a capitalist dream, motivated entirely by self-interest, with not even a Protestant work ethic as a redemptive feature.

Come into the light, brother.
If free orange juice makes it on to the top 3 life changing things a politician had done for you then you really have had a harder up bringing than my humble one.
As a working class kid, brought up in a terraced house, outside loo, no father figure, shit school, few qualifications at the time, etc, who yes, has come good, it pains me as to how many kids actually go on to accept their lot in life , the Protestant work ethic as you call it. Others will call it the blame game , every one else’s fault but their own. Strangely the middle classes never seem to adopt this stance which always gives them a head start over woe is me.
We don’t live in a Utopia, where everything is fair, never will, we have to accept certain responsibilities and stand on our own two feet rather than keep saying it’s always some one else’s fault.
There was a very good book written in the 1970’s called Economics Of The Real World. In it the Author goes on to explain how the Economy would work if we returned to day 1 and re distributed the Country’s wealth evenly.
Human nature would take over, some would spend it on drink, others would supply the drink to them at a profit etc and very quickly literally within weeks, the Country would take on a similar pattern as we have at the moment.
The point I am making is we are all different and always will be. We all have to get on with our lives despite the shit that gets thrown at us.
Society should be there to help the most vulnerable and those who cannot help themselves , nobody would argue with that.
In a Facebook website called Stockport Memories last week there was a woman complaining about the state of what is known locally as the bear pit. It’s in the Town Centre and about the size of the Centre Circle on a football field
It wasn’t kept like it used to be as there were weeds growing and it wasn’t being swept. Guess whose fault it was .. The Governments. What was even more surprising was the amount of posters who agreed with her and gave her loads of likes.
With those sort of attitudes, that it is always someone else’s fault there is no incentive to ever do anything to help oneself to do better and many just end up in a rut for long periods of their lives.
 
But Alex Salmond couldn't promise that so even if he had it isn't worth anything.

He could given he was leader of the SNP and head of the campaign. Like it or not, spin it as some sort of Tory spin as much as you like, he said it.


If Scotland wants another vote and Westminster agrees then who am I to argue? I’m against Scottish independance and think it would be a bigger mistake than brexit was and I’m allowed that opinion but my point stands, it was a once in a generation chance for independence according to Salmond.
 
Don’t just list, without expanding on your points just a little bit,it’s difficult to side with you. How has QE affected you.
I thought Education was free up to 18. Having to pay towards it after that for some degrees that will never lead to a job in that particular field perhaps makes students think twice about starting it and then dropping out when they get bored.
How did Brexit change your life?
you asked me to name something and i did. Now you want me to explain why?
When i get back from school run i might spell it out for you if i can be arsed.
 

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