10 | Jack Grealish - 2022/23 Performances

[Txiki Txiki Bang Bang]

Ok, so apart from him controling the game in stopping counter attacks, (which he doesn't btw) what else does he do?

Grealish himself said he was underperforming in interview quite recently. He is. He's also underwhelming. Plenty on here gave it the "we'll see his true qualities second season" and words to the like, but the truth is we aren't seeing much difference this season.

He doesn't beat a man and he doesn't dribble. He usually receives the ball goes on a10 yard run then gets rid. He hasn't got a burst of speed, just a slow predictable speed defenders quite often work out to nullify any threat. His crossing is average and his assists and goals are well below what he should be producing.

Sterling got pelters on here almost every week. Often by the same posters who defend any criticism of Grealish. But Sterling's effort in goals and assists were far better than Jack has given us thus far.

Well, there you have it.

Come to think of it, this narrative of "controlling" the game, I am not really sure where it came from BUT let's say he really does control the game, so...? Does that exclude him from contributing goals and assists? Is it unreasonable for the fans to demand more?

You know who one of the best at actually controlling the game for us was? Samir Nasri and you know what else Nasri did? He got goals and assists, Big goals might I add! And just like Sterling and Jesus, a lot of fans took a huge dump on Nasri, Why? Because those fans felt he wasn't contributing enough (and they were right about it too). If these big characters can be criticized then I don't see why we can't call things out for what they really are!

I don't care about the price tag, he didn't set that and he didn't force Pep to sign him. That's done, no need crying over spilled milk, however what I am concerned about is his contribution to the team.

Che Adams, Jack Harrison, Ward Prowse, Barnes, Almiron, Maddison or any of these players would contribute just as much if not more than what Grealish has contributed to the team.

How has it all of a sudden become an abomination to tell the truth about the poor form of a supposed professional player?

 

[blueparrot]

Well, there you have it.

Come to think of it, this narrative of "controlling" the game, I am not really sure where it came from BUT let's say he really does control the game, so...? Does that exclude him from contributing goals and assists? Is it unreasonable for the fans to demand more?

You know who one of the best at actually controlling the game for us was? Samir Nasri and you know what else Nasri did? He got goals and assists, Big goals might I add! And just like Sterling and Jesus, a lot of fans took a huge dump on Nasri, Why? Because those fans felt he wasn't contributing enough (and they were right about it too). If these big characters can be criticized then I don't see why we can't call things out for what they really are!

I don't care about the price tag, he didn't set that and he didn't force Pep to sign him. That's done, no need crying of spilled milk, however what I am concerned about is his contribution to the team.

Che Adams, Jack Harrison, Ward Prowse, Barnes, Almiron, Maddison or any of these players would contribute just as much if not more than what Grealish has contributed to the team.

How has it all of a sudden become an abomination to tell the truth about the poor form of a supposed professional player?

Nobody mentioned controlling the game, Pep mentioned controlling the counter attacks, which with our high line is our one real weakness.

 

[Maly]

For those who love their stats

Goal scoring or shooting chances created per player per 90 in the Prem



& same across the top 5 leagues in Europe

 

[supercity88]

For those who love their stats

Goal scoring or shooting chances created per player per 90 in the Prem

View attachment 59187

& same across the top 5 leagues in Europe
View attachment 59188

We should have signed Neymar!

 

[schfc6]

For those who love their stats

Goal scoring or shooting chances created per player per 90 in the Prem

View attachment 59187

& same across the top 5 leagues in Europe
View attachment 59188

But what does that mean? Take a very recent passage of play vs Brighton. De Bruyne puts one on a plate for Grealish, rather than take that chance, Grealish then plays it back to De Bruyne on his weak foot with men in front of him and the shot is easily saved.

The point being, his stupid, lazy pass will go on this list. In reality, Grealish should have scored..

I think that’s the issue many take with him. He often ‘passes the buck’ to a player in a far worse position to the one he is in.
For me so far, he’s just not brave enough.

We can talk all we want, he’s simply not producing the key numbers and that is why fans are asking questions and Pep normally leaves him out of big games..

If Pep is so keen on him ‘controlling the counter attacks’ can anyone explain why he was left out vs Liverpool? Arguably the best counter attacking side in the Europe?

Pep has to say stuff like that, because there’s not much else to say.

He’s not stunk by any stretch but he’s been disappointing. His numbers appalling but we can carry him and his qualities.

 

[domalino]

We can talk all we want, he’s simply not producing the key numbers

Only because you've decided "the key numbers" are goals and assists.

Grealish is absolutely incredible at getting the ball up the pitch, and getting the ball into the box.

These are really helpful - vital - things in our team, which scores well over 90% of goals from inside the box. Grealish gets the ball in the box, either by beating players via dribbling or making successful passes into the most congested area of the pitch. We score more goals and win more matches when he's playing because of this.

The conversation should be framed as goals and assists being the only thing missing, the final piece of the jigsaw, not the most basic thing he needs to deliver.

 

[WestGorton]

At least Jack isn't a bore like some on here.

 

[schfc6]

Only because you've decided "the key numbers" are goals and assists.

Grealish is absolutely incredible at getting the ball up the pitch, and getting the ball into the box.

These are really helpful - vital - things in our team, which scores well over 90% of goals from inside the box. Grealish gets the ball in the box, either by beating players via dribbling or making successful passes into the most congested area of the pitch. We score more goals and win more matches when he's playing because of this.

The conversation should be framed as goals and assists being the only thing missing, the final piece of the jigsaw, not the most basic thing he needs to deliver.


View attachment 59219

View attachment 59220

I understand what he brings.

“These are really helpful - vital - things in our team, which scores well over 90% of goals from inside the box. Grealish gets the ball in the box, either by beating players via dribbling or making successful passes into the most congested area of the pitch. We score more goals and win more matches when he's playing because of this.”

Is that because he’s left out of the most difficult games though? The tough away games?
He also seems to remain on the bench when we’re in need of help in big games.

We win what 80/90% of all our games? So, if you’re missing the hardest games, you’re likely to be involved in the biggest wins.

I’ve said he’s got some very good attributes. But if he doesn’t add the difference makers to his game. He’ll be getting even less minutes in key games.

I’d also add, whilst he’s brilliant at getting us up the pitch through dribbling, we are often better served moving the ball even quicker through direct passing like we see from LaPorte, Stones or as Fernandinho used to.

I also notice Mahrez is really high on the same list. So with Mahrez you get a similar level of this particular stat but also double figure goals & assists every season.

The company he’s keeping at the top of the ‘normalised carries’ league you posted also win games, big games with key goals and assists.

Also many on the list, are fucking awful players.

I see what he brings, but still believe we need more from him or he’ll be gone.

 

[domalino]

Is that because he’s left out of the most difficult games though? The tough away games?

Is he? He's started away vs PSG, Liverpool, Liverpool in the FA Cup, Liverpool in the shield, Chelsea, Spurs, 5/6 away games in the CL groups since he arrived.

He's missed 1 big away game this season, Liverpool, but he's played them more than anyone else away from home.

In fact 15 of his 26 Premier League starts have been away from home, so he's actually getting picked more away from home than at the Etihad...


This is the crux of the Grealish debate. You have your suspicions and feelings that he's not good or doesn't play big away games, and all the real world evidence shows you're wrong. And you'll probably be griping about him in 2028 because he's not going anywhere.

You also seemingly can't distinguish between different people replying to you because the "rant about lists" section of your comment isn't anything to do with mine.

 

[schfc6]

Is he? He's started away vs PSG, Liverpool, Liverpool in the FA Cup, Liverpool in the shield, Chelsea, Spurs, 5/6 away games in the CL groups since he arrived.

He's missed 1 big away game this season, Liverpool, but he's played them more than anyone else away from home.

In fact 15 of his 26 Premier League starts have been away from home, so he's actually getting picked more away from home than at the Etihad...


This is the crux of the Grealish debate. You have your suspicions and feelings that he's not good or doesn't play big away games, and all the real world evidence shows you're wrong. And you'll probably be griping about him in 2028 because he's not going anywhere.

You also seemingly can't distinguish between different people replying to you because the "rant about lists" section of your comment isn't anything to do with mine.

The real World evidence doesn’t show that at all.
The real World evidence shows he’s been underwhelming..

I see you’ve ignored all my other points about the evidence you’ve provided,

What’s this “rants about lists” quote all about?
I‘ve simply looked at the information you’ve posted and responded to it politely.
Fir example the ’normalised progressive carries’ graph has him just above Vinicius Jnr, who I think we came all agree also posts far greater numbers elsewhere on the pitch. As does Dembelle.

But I’d also be hesitant to use data or statistics that include Dan James towards the top.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

For those who love their stats

Goal scoring or shooting chances created per player per 90 in the Prem

Volume looks great.

2nd behind KDB for Key Passes p90 in the PL as well >4 90s.

BUT the eye test suggests he is not creating lots of bigger xG shots.
The data from the same site backs this up. Try it yourself for all PL players on the "passing" tab filtered for xGA.
He's 15th overall, a million miles behind KDB, behind Gundog and a smidgeon ahead.of Phil.

With apologies to all the bored x (but accept this is boring for many)

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Is he? He's started away vs PSG, Liverpool, Liverpool in the FA Cup, Liverpool in the shield, Chelsea, Spurs, 5/6 away games in the CL groups since he arrived.

He's missed 1 big away game this season, Liverpool, but he's played them more than anyone else away from home.

In fact 15 of his 26 Premier League starts have been away from home, so he's actually getting picked more away from home than at the Etihad...


This is the crux of the Grealish debate. You have your suspicions and feelings that he's not good or doesn't play big away games, and all the real world evidence shows you're wrong. And you'll probably be griping about him in 2028 because he's not going anywhere.

You also seemingly can't distinguish between different people replying to you because the "rant about lists" section of your comment isn't anything to do with mine.

You are including the start of 21/22 where Grealish played loads. Sterling got something like 4 starts from the 1st 15 PL&CL group games. Sterling then was back in favour from late 2021 and was ahead of Grealish in the rotation.

This calendar year Grealish has started just 13 times from 29 PL games (9 from 18 in 2nd half of 21/22, 4 from 11 this season) Only 3 of those games have been against BIg 6 teams - 2 against United and 1 against Chelsea and all 3 at home.

Remember he also did NOT start any of the 6 CL k/o rounds.

At the moment he is a glorified squad player. Simple.

 

[Maly]

But what does that mean? Take a very recent passage of play vs Brighton. De Bruyne puts one on a plate for Grealish, rather than take that chance, Grealish then plays it back to De Bruyne on his weak foot with men in front of him and the shot is easily saved.

The point being, his stupid, lazy pass will go on this list. In reality, Grealish should have scored..

I think that’s the issue many take with him. He often ‘passes the buck’ to a player in a far worse position to the one he is in.
For me so far, he’s just not brave enough.

We can talk all we want, he’s simply not producing the key numbers and that is why fans are asking questions and Pep normally leaves him out of big games..

If Pep is so keen on him ‘controlling the counter attacks’ can anyone explain why he was left out vs Liverpool? Arguably the best counter attacking side in the Europe?

Pep has to say stuff like that, because there’s not much else to say.

He’s not stunk by any stretch but he’s been disappointing. His numbers appalling but we can carry him and his qualities.

I was just posting some stats mate, but if you wish to pull apart any positive stats on the lad, crack on if it makes you feel better

As for key numbers? Guess you mean goals & assists? Is that your definition of key numbers?

If so, do you honestly believe with all of the huge amounts of data available to our analysts & Pep, they think that who scored or got the assist is a key number?

Here’s some more positive stats which I don’t believe are appalling. You can pull them apart dude, or maybe realise he’s being far more effective for the team than your eyes are telling you ;)


He has the 6th best goal creation actions in the team, a tiny fraction below Gundogan & Mahrez

Goal-Creating Action is an advanced metric that tracks the two offensive/attacking actions that leads to a goal.

Which is a far more insightful & useful metric than simply ‘who made the final pass’


So he’s involved in creating 0.69 goals per 90mins he plays. That’s being involved with creating just over 2 goals every 3 games he plays in

Is that appalling?

Granted his number of assists is appalling, but the analytical football world seem to have moved on from assists being overly important as a stat, because in isolation, it’s completely fucking useless, so maybe let it go?

What I find even more interesting, is the fact that only one of our goals has been created by dribbling, which may explain why we don’t see any of our wingers really take anybody on anymore. Ie dribbling clearly isn’t the best way to create goals

The dribbling part is also backed up by the Prem list. Guessing this is the main reason we don’t see Grealish rinsing players too often, as it’s pretty pointless & not the way we play



This one shows some other top quality players (maybe with one exception)


Miles ahead of Salah, Fernandes, Jesus & Sterling for being involved with creating goals & all supposedly creative players

Is that appalling?

Btw, his in depth passing stats are absolutely mustard too

 

[Txiki Txiki Bang Bang]

The real World evidence doesn’t show that at all.
The real World evidence shows he’s been underwhelming..

I see you’ve ignored all my other points about the evidence you’ve provided,

What’s this “rants about lists” quote all about?
I‘ve simply looked at the information you’ve posted and responded to it politely.
Fir example the ’normalised progressive carries’ graph has him just above Vinicius Jnr, who I think we came all agree also posts far greater numbers elsewhere on the pitch. As does Dembelle.

But I’d also be hesitant to use data or statistics that include Dan James towards the top.

This is one fight you would never win. They just wouldn't accept the fact.

 

[schfc6]

I was just posting some stats mate, but if you wish to pull apart any positive stats on the lad, crack on if it makes you feel better

As for key numbers? Guess you mean goals & assists? Is that your definition of key numbers?

If so, do you honestly believe with all of the huge amounts of data available to our analysts & Pep, they think that who scored or got the assist is a key number?

Here’s some more positive stats which I don’t believe are appalling. You can pull them apart dude, or maybe realise he’s being far more effective for the team than your eyes are telling you ;)

View attachment 59275
He has the 6th best goal creation actions in the team, a tiny fraction below Gundogan & Mahrez

Goal-Creating Action is an advanced metric that tracks the two offensive/attacking actions that leads to a goal.

Which is a far more insightful & useful metric than simply ‘who made the final pass’

View attachment 59276
So he’s involved in creating 0.69 goals per 90mins he plays. That’s being involved with creating just over 2 goals every 3 games he plays in

Is that appalling?

Granted his number of assists is appalling, but the analytical football world seem to have moved on from assists being overly important as a stat, because in isolation, it’s completely fucking useless, so maybe let it go?

What I find even more interesting, is the fact that only one of our goals has been created by dribbling, which may explain why we don’t see any of our wingers really take anybody on anymore. Ie dribbling clearly isn’t the best way to create goals

The dribbling part is also backed up by the Prem list. Guessing this is the main reason we don’t see Grealish rinsing players too often, as it’s pretty pointless & not the way we play

View attachment 59278

This one shows some other top quality players (maybe with one exception)

View attachment 59279
Miles ahead of Salah, Fernandes, Jesus & Sterling for being involved with creating goals & all supposedly creative players

Is that appalling?

Btw, his in depth passing stats are absolutely mustard too

I’m sorry, but we’re reading those stats totally different.

I don’t think what you’ve posted paints him a great light to be honest.

For example goals & shots creations per 90 at City, he’s 6th. And doesn’t offer any of the other threats that the players above him do.
He’s just above Rodri in goal & shot creation per 90. With less goal
threat.

His goals shots creation in the Premier League overall is also poor and he’s our lowest ranked attacker. Haaland aside. He’s ranked alongside Chillwell and Antonio.

I think he’s a decent player, but I think mine and many Curt fans issue is, I expect elite performance from our elite players. If these are his elite attributes and he’s still behind Chillwell. Then it’s not good enough.

There’s loads of players offering what Grealish does that also score and are a constant danger.

According to those stats and the ones posted by Domalino, he’s performing nowhere near elite level.

By your own evidence, he’s offering up decent football with a lack of killer end product.

 

[Maly]

I’m sorry, but we’re reading those stats totally different.

I don’t think what you’ve posted paints him a great light to be honest.

For example goals & shots creations per 90 at City, he’s 6th. And doesn’t offer any of the other threats that the players above him do.
He’s just above Rodri in goal & shot creation per 90. With less goal
threat.

His goals shots creation in the Premier League overall is also poor and he’s our lowest ranked attacker. Haaland aside. He’s ranked alongside Chillwell and Antonio.

I think he’s a decent player, but I think mine and many Curt fans issue is, I expect elite performance from our elite players. If these are his elite attributes and he’s still behind Chillwell. Then it’s not good enough.

There’s loads of players offering what Grealish does that also score and are a constant danger.

According to those stats and the ones posted by Domalino, he’s performing nowhere near elite level.

By your own evidence, he’s offering up decent football with a lack of killer end product.

Don’t be sorry mate, not everyone understands stats ;)

(Joking mate)

I wasn’t really posting for debate, but happy to discuss mate

Basically when you strip away everything you’ve posted & the stats I’ve provided, what you’re saying is that Grealish being involved with creating over 2 goals every 3 games are appalling numbers because Childwell is involved in more & he doesn’t have enough assets

Just wow mate

I’m sure you don’t mean that, but that’s exactly how I’ve interpreted it my friend

 

[Maly]

I’m sorry, but we’re reading those stats totally different.

I don’t think what you’ve posted paints him a great light to be honest.

For example goals & shots creations per 90 at City, he’s 6th. And doesn’t offer any of the other threats that the players above him do.
He’s just above Rodri in goal & shot creation per 90. With less goal
threat.

His goals shots creation in the Premier League overall is also poor and he’s our lowest ranked attacker. Haaland aside. He’s ranked alongside Chillwell and Antonio.

I think he’s a decent player, but I think mine and many Curt fans issue is, I expect elite performance from our elite players. If these are his elite attributes and he’s still behind Chillwell. Then it’s not good enough.

There’s loads of players offering what Grealish does that also score and are a constant danger.

According to those stats and the ones posted by Domalino, he’s performing nowhere near elite level.

By your own evidence, he’s offering up decent football with a lack of killer end product.

By your own evidence, he’s offering up decent football with a lack of killer end product.

Yes absolutely as he’s providing more opportunities than anyone in the Prem per 90, other than KDB, to get players into a position to make an attempted assist


Phil, Bernardo & Kev tend to be the players we work into positions to supply the last pass, would be nice if he adds more goals & assists, but he’s more of a Gundogan than a KDB for me, so should never be expected to hit Phil or Kev’s numbers. Quite simply, it’s not me of his main strengths & may never improve very much

 

[schfc6]

Don’t be sorry mate, not everyone understands stats ;)

(Joking mate)

I wasn’t really posting for debate, but happy to discuss mate

Basically when you strip away everything you’ve posted & the stats I’ve provided, what you’re saying is that Grealish being involved with creating over 2 goals every 3 games are appalling numbers because Childwell is involved in more & he doesn’t have enough assets

Just wow mate

I’m sure you don’t mean that, but that’s exactly how I’ve interpreted it my friend

Not really, you’re highlighting what are considered his strengths. If these are his strengths then considering his obvious weakness in direct goal involvements he needs to much higher up than the likes of Antonio & Chillwell.

My point is really, lots of elite players are posting similar or better numbers to the ones considered his best strengths and still out performing him in the other key areas.

He’s 6th in our own squad for the stats you’ve posted.

 

[schfc6]

By your own evidence, he’s offering up decent football with a lack of killer end product.

Yes absolutely as he’s providing more opportunities than anyone in the Prem per 90, other than KDB, to get players into a position to make an attempted assist
View attachment 59290

Phil, Bernardo & Kev tend to be the players we work into positions to supply the last pass, would be nice if he adds more goals & assists, but he’s more of a Gundogan than a KDB for me, so should never be expected to hit Phil or Kev’s numbers. Quite simply, it’s not me of his main strengths & may never improve very much

Again, I’d suggest this isn’t impressive at all when put into context. If this is what we consider Grealish’s biggest strength, then to only be level pegging with Benrahma considering the side he’s in, and also failing to deliver adequate numbers in other areas. I’d suggest it’s a fairly poor reflection of him.

Benrahma wouldn’t get in our u23’s.

I wouldn’t expect and I don’t expect Grealish to put up De Bruyne or other elite wide forwards numbers. But I’d expect him to put up Jack Harrison numbers.

He’s an elite player on a huge wage at City taking up one of three attacking positions, don’t think it’s too much to expect a little better.

I’m not even that big a detractor of him. I’d probably play him a bit deeper against weaker sides, not sure he’s got the gas or intelligence to play centrally at the highest levels. But would be an interesting option against the bus parkers or lazy fuckers like the swamp dwellers.

 

[oldius]

Like the Brexiteers who will not countenance the economic damage clearly caused by leaving the EU, the anti-Grealish brigade refuse to recognise any contribution Jack makes, despite all the evidence provided. It is what it is, and it is the only thing I despise about my club.