Question Time

[somapop]

No she works for the IEA - a shady "think tank" that works out of Tufton Street who nobody knows who funds them but funnily enough they and she in particular pushes anti state provided medicare - ie the NHS - every time she is on the BBC - which is both disgraceful and far too many times

I've seen her pop up on things before.

I actually thought it was the other woman who was IEA (as she was hashing up a Brexit line) but turns out she's a Tory minister I'd never heard of.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I've seen her pop up on things before.

I actually thought it was the other woman who was IEA (as she was hashing up a Brexit line) but turns out she's a Tory minister I'd never heard of.

The IEA try not to talk about Brexit these days - nor Truss, nor Kwarteng, nor the mini budget nor anything they were behind because it always went tits up because its all right wing bullshit and like all right wingers they don't want to own anything

 

[somapop]

The IEA try not to talk about Brexit these days - nor Truss, nor Kwarteng, nor the mini budget nor anything they were behind because it always went tits up because its all right wing bullshit and like all right wingers they don't want to own anything

Some of these are very good at brushing stuff off but it's increasingly difficult when 'stuff' has grown rather corpulent (like elephant sized corpulent)....

 

[NPBlue]

I must admit to being surprised that even Bruce dare discuss the B word after it being completely off the agenda by the pro right media for many months ! Even more surprised by the audience reaction and criticism of brexit in a Tory area too. As for Ashworth and Labour they need to know that there are many, like me, who won't vote for them whilst they continue this pro brexit support agenda. Not even prepared to comment on the negative impact. Appalling and as bad as the Tories in a way !

It's time for us to forget who won and lost after the referendum, and accept the damage it is causing. We can't run and hide from that decision, because the longer we collectively refuse to acknowledge it was a disaster for our economy, our living standards will continue to fall.

Everything about the brexit campaign was nothing short of bullshit, and the leave suppoting voters claiming they knew what they were voting for were hoodwinked into a decision that won't benefit them in the long term.

One of the positives our membership of the EU had, and I had been saying it for years, was it protected all of us from the extreme policies right wing governments wanted to impose on us, and it isn't a surprise it was a tory government that was at the forefront of backing the leave campaign.

They hated the EU because it prevented them from imposing their free market crap on us, and now we are out, they aren't wasting much time in having their 'bonfire' of EU rules that have protected our rights for years.

It's not clear at the moment if that bonfire will happen, as the implications for UK businesses are too costly to be realistic, but other bills are passing through the House of Commons that couldn't have happened while we were still members of the EU.

 

[Kazzydeyna]

I voted for brexit, and argued for it on here occasionally, as well as elsewhere. I still, instinctively, believe this country should be fully independent of both the EU or indeed any other major political grouping of nations. I am unapologetic for this belief, and I don’t say that flippantly, or to be confrontational.

What I do apologise for is that I should never have voted for Brexit with a govt like we had in 2016, and still have today. Maybe it (Brexit ) can only ever be a pipe dream, and being so far aligned with the EU as we were, makes it impossible to have a Brexit that wouldn’t be damaging in the short, medium, and possibly even the longer, term.

I believed, as naive as it sounds today, that if we left there would be a change in govt within a year or two as Brexit was always going to tear the tories apart, and we would end up with a Corbyn govt which would be a closer version of socialist and improve the country, free to make its own rules etc etc etc. I actually believed (and hoped for) the chance to go back to the sort of country we had in the 1970s in a political sense, where we had a clear choice between govts that were very different in philosophy, and offered two different choices for the country and had to answer for their decisions without using the EU as a body to blame or hide behind.

We all know that didn’t happen and quite probably couldn’t ever have happened.

I don’t consider myself thick , or xenophobic in the slightest. I do now consider myself extremely naive however. I don’t think I was conned. I think I failed to appreciate the ramifications of Brexit turning out the way they have. That’s on me. I didn’t fail to do so because of any billboards, buses, or speeches from frothing, vile, racists. I failed to see the ramifications because I believed, stupidly with hindsight, that our politicians would work hard to make Brexit work.

They haven’t of course, and as embarrassing as it is to admit, that they’ve had the chance to royally fuck things up is partly on me and my vote.

I’m passionately, unapologetically, keen to see this country return to being a fairer, kinder, and more equal one.
I thought Brexit would be the first of a great many necessary steps on that journey. I was wrong unfortunately.

I don’t say this as someone who has had a damascene conversion and now supports the idea of the EU. I haven’t and I don’t. I say it as someone who has seen the last few years tear people apart and degrade our country and her international standing, never mind the economy. Perhaps for several generations. I have to take my share of the responsibility for that.
I do however only speak for myself. I don’t, can’t, and wouldn’t even if I could, speak for anyone else who voted for Brexit.

 

[Chris in London]

I voted for brexit, and argued for it on here occasionally, as well as elsewhere. I still, instinctively, believe this country should be fully independent of both the EU or indeed any other major political grouping of nations.

Presumably for the same reason you also advocate U.K. withdrawal from NATO, the United Nations, the World Health Organisatio, the World Trade Association, etc?

You don’t, because you aren’t stupid. Yet you must be able to understand that in a world in which global interaction and interdependence is a fact of life, issues like defence, health, trade, medicine, economics etc all have political angles. To say we shouldn’t be involved in an international political grouping is to say we shouldn’t be involved in an international grouping.

Even FIFA is a political grouping.

To identify the EU alone as the grouping you wanted to leave because it alone is “political” is a sad reminder of how dishonest the Vote Leave campaign was.

 

[Grassland Blue]

Presumably for the same reason you also advocate U.K. withdrawal from NATO, the United Nations, the World Health Organisatio, the World Trade Association, etc?

You don’t, because you aren’t stupid. Yet you must be able to understand that in a world in which global interaction and interdependence is a fact of life, issues like defence, health, trade, medicine, economics etc all have political angles. To say we shouldn’t be involved in an international political grouping is to say we shouldn’t be involved in an international grouping.

Even FIFA is a political grouping.

To identify the EU alone as the grouping you wanted to leave because it alone is “political” is a sad reminder of how dishonest the Vote Leave campaign was.

Voting leave was a very selfish thing to do ino.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I still, instinctively, believe this country should be fully independent of both the EU or indeed any other major political grouping of nations

There is no country on this planet that fulfils this ambition of yours. If it was so advantageous did it not occur to you why none of the big boys did it? I mean if the largest economy in the world is in trade bloc's - defence organisations and so on if they could fare even better by standing completely alone they would have done it decades ago

 

[Vic]

I voted for brexit, and argued for it on here occasionally, as well as elsewhere. I still, instinctively, believe this country should be fully independent of both the EU or indeed any other major political grouping of nations. I am unapologetic for this belief, and I don’t say that flippantly, or to be confrontational.

What I do apologise for is that I should never have voted for Brexit with a govt like we had in 2016, and still have today. Maybe it (Brexit ) can only ever be a pipe dream, and being so far aligned with the EU as we were, makes it impossible to have a Brexit that wouldn’t be damaging in the short, medium, and possibly even the longer, term.

I believed, as naive as it sounds today, that if we left there would be a change in govt within a year or two as Brexit was always going to tear the tories apart, and we would end up with a Corbyn govt which would be a closer version of socialist and improve the country, free to make its own rules etc etc etc. I actually believed (and hoped for) the chance to go back to the sort of country we had in the 1970s in a political sense, where we had a clear choice between govts that were very different in philosophy, and offered two different choices for the country and had to answer for their decisions without using the EU as a body to blame or hide behind.

We all know that didn’t happen and quite probably couldn’t ever have happened.

I don’t consider myself thick , or xenophobic in the slightest. I do now consider myself extremely naive however. I don’t think I was conned. I think I failed to appreciate the ramifications of Brexit turning out the way they have. That’s on me. I didn’t fail to do so because of any billboards, buses, or speeches from frothing, vile, racists. I failed to see the ramifications because I believed, stupidly with hindsight, that our politicians would work hard to make Brexit work

Thanks for that.

"Our politicians would work hard to make Brexit work" is the giveaway. Because the sensible option that was promised ("We'll still be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border") was quickly jettisoned by the Tories in favour of unicorn nonsense, the option of thinking again about the decision to leave became what most sensible politicians wanted.

 

[NPBlue]

I voted for brexit, and argued for it on here occasionally, as well as elsewhere. I still, instinctively, believe this country should be fully independent of both the EU or indeed any other major political grouping of nations. I am unapologetic for this belief, and I don’t say that flippantly, or to be confrontational.

What I do apologise for is that I should never have voted for Brexit with a govt like we had in 2016, and still have today. Maybe it (Brexit ) can only ever be a pipe dream, and being so far aligned with the EU as we were, makes it impossible to have a Brexit that wouldn’t be damaging in the short, medium, and possibly even the longer, term.

I believed, as naive as it sounds today, that if we left there would be a change in govt within a year or two as Brexit was always going to tear the tories apart, and we would end up with a Corbyn govt which would be a closer version of socialist and improve the country, free to make its own rules etc etc etc. I actually believed (and hoped for) the chance to go back to the sort of country we had in the 1970s in a political sense, where we had a clear choice between govts that were very different in philosophy, and offered two different choices for the country and had to answer for their decisions without using the EU as a body to blame or hide behind.

We all know that didn’t happen and quite probably couldn’t ever have happened.

I don’t consider myself thick , or xenophobic in the slightest. I do now consider myself extremely naive however. I don’t think I was conned. I think I failed to appreciate the ramifications of Brexit turning out the way they have. That’s on me. I didn’t fail to do so because of any billboards, buses, or speeches from frothing, vile, racists. I failed to see the ramifications because I believed, stupidly with hindsight, that our politicians would work hard to make Brexit work.

They haven’t of course, and as embarrassing as it is to admit, that they’ve had the chance to royally fuck things up is partly on me and my vote.

I’m passionately, unapologetically, keen to see this country return to being a fairer, kinder, and more equal one.
I thought Brexit would be the first of a great many necessary steps on that journey. I was wrong unfortunately.

I don’t say this as someone who has had a damascene conversion and now supports the idea of the EU. I haven’t and I don’t. I say it as someone who has seen the last few years tear people apart and degrade our country and her international standing, never mind the economy. Perhaps for several generations. I have to take my share of the responsibility for that.
I do however only speak for myself. I don’t, can’t, and wouldn’t even if I could, speak for anyone else who voted for Brexit.

It's nice to see a brexit voter admitting they chose the wrong option, but I fail to understand your assertion the UK should be 'fully independent'.

We were always an independent, sovereign nation, making our own laws without a dictat from Brussels. Yes, we had to pass legislation in the House of Commons to accept rulings from the EU, but we agreed to those rulings with votes by our MEP's in Brussels. That is not undemocratic, and we had the power of veto if we wanted to stop it.

Many leavers before the referendum were decrying our loss of sovereignty because the ECJ was ruling our lives, but if you look at the cases brought before that court from UK rulings subsequently overturned, is it really so bad that Police stations have to have at least one cell suitable for disabled people being held in custody, or Gurkhas returning to Nepal should receive the same pension as UK born soldiers?

I don't think you fully understand what the EU is about, and that's not me trying to patronising. It is a community trying to improve the lives of its people. In many areas, too many to mention, it has achieved that, be it with the safety of electrical equipment, security of employment, emissions from the exhausts of vehicles, and the UK was at the forefront of many of those rules being passed into law.

I personallly couldn't think of a single area in my life that had been adveresly affected by our membership of the EU on a day to day basis, but I could think of many areas where it had been improved. Unfortunately, I now see a bonfire of those protections which is what the right wing press owning barons, with collusion from this tory government, wanted all along.

It's a shame you couldn't see that at the time, and we are all going to pay the price. Our rights for a fairer society which you want were much more secure when we were members of the EU.

 

[r.soleofsalford]

In what world was Brexit ever going to be a financial success.

We had to scrap all our trade agree and try to renegotiate them with the whole world from a position of weakness.

I think we as a country are fucked barring a miracle.

 

[dave_blue12]

As the Russian Ambassador to London is reported to have said ‘Britain is on its knees and won’t be getting back up anytime soon’. Job done.

The facilitators of Brexit are traitors and belong behind bars.

 

[Vic]

In what world was Brexit ever going to be a financial success.

We had to scrap all our trade agree and try to renegotiate them with the whole world from a position of weakness.

I think we as a country are fucked barring a miracle.

How many of the trade deals we had via the EU have not been renegotiated?

 

[Chris in London]

In what world was Brexit ever going to be a financial success.

We had to scrap all our trade agree and try to renegotiate them with the whole world from a position of weakness.

I think we as a country are fucked barring a miracle.

We aren’t “fucked,” we’re still the sixth biggest economy in the world.

what we are is significantly damaged, and that damage was utterly self inflicted.

In the 1980s a decision was made that the U.K. should move away from its old heavy industrial economic base and move towards a service based economy. Whether this was ideologically driven to emasculate the power of the big unions or pragmatism because steel etc can be done much cheaper in China than on Weirside is besides the point. It was done.

so for thirty years a concerted effort was made to cement London‘s place as the preeminent financial centre in Europe if not the world. And it was successful. Huge amounts of financial services were supplied that generated vast tax revenues for the U.K. It more than compensated for the loss of our heavy industrial base. The creation of the single market allowing the U.K. financial services sector access to the comparatively underdeveloped markets of Western Europe benefitted is uniquely.

And then in 2016 we pissed that huge advantage away. on the say so of a bunch of liars chancers grifters and fuckwits. Its as if a football manager set up the whole team around one man’s ability to take a good dead ball and when the team has evolved to the point they can’t play any other way, to let the dead ball specialist go on a free.

So now we have to decide what we are in the world. We are refusing even to contemplate doing the obvious thing, which is rejoin the single market, because it is so toxic politically. Even if we did we have already lost our financial dominance to Paris and Frankfurt. We are not going to pick up lost trade via trade deals with third parties, it was bullshit to believe we would do from day one.

what will be our new role in the world, I don’t know. We still do high end expensive products very well. We aren’t going to trade our way back to prosperity any time soon. We can’t rely on the supply of services as we did previously.

We aren’t fucked, but we have cut off our own foot, and will have to make our way in the world without the clear advantages we once had.

ironic really that the proponents of British exceptionalism have largely caused significant and quite possibly permanent damage to our National economic health.

 

[BrianW]

It's not pro-Brexit.

It's humiliating to be where we are. Much more humiliating to ask to rejoin and be told no.

Get elected, negotiate a deal (CU/SM), let demographics and economic reality do the rest. I really don't want to be arguing on the doorstep about how £20bn a year to the EU would be worth it with people who still don't get it, no matter how diminished that number. 63% now think it was a mistake, but the 37% is still people who could do the wrong thing in an election and vote Tory.

Come to my doorstep and you will be told in no uncertain terms that I shall not be voting Labour again unless and until the party makes a definite plan to work towards regaining EU membership. (And I know it can't be overnight. I'm not that stupid. But you build a house by laying the first brick, not by proposing to live in a tent.)

The only exception I will make is a vote for Burnham locally as I like what he is trying to do. But maintaining the folly of Brexit and trying to 'make it work' is a joke. You might as well promise to make Richard III work again as a functioning monarch. No government, however talented, can do the impossible.

 

[Vic]

Come to my doorstep and you will be told in no uncertain terms that I shall not be voting Labour again unless and until the party makes a definite plan to work towards regaining EU membership. (And I know it can't be overnight. I'm not that stupid. But you build a house by laying the first brick, not by proposing to live in a tent.)

The only exception I will make is a vote for Burnham locally as I like what he is trying to do. But maintaining the folly of Brexit and trying to 'make it work' is a joke. You might as well promise to make Richard III work again as a functioning monarch. No government, however talented, can do the impossible.

There is a definite plan. It's to get elected then get whatever new deal we can.

Has any party got a definite plan "to work towards regaining EU membership"?

Your "Rejoin EU party" will have a plan. "Can we rejoin, please?" "NO". End of Plan.

We lost our Labour MP because the Lib Dems' promise to cancel Brexit took Labour votes, and the Tory got in. Once again, perfection is the enemy of the good.

 

[BrianW]

I take your point and it is not without merit.
However, the LP's position seems to me to be a mixture of deceit and wishful thinking.
It amounts to: 'We definitely won't rejoin, not even the Single Market. We'll get elected, not least on the back of people still deluded enough to support Brexit, and then we'll try to get a better deal. But we haven't a scooby what that will be. We can't even put a name to it, or outline what we want. It just won't be to rejoin and it won't be the Single Market.'
I can't back that as it's too vague. It's a bit like a woman saying, 'I won't marry you, but I would like some sort of relationship. But I can't define it. It might amount to going to Alderley Edge with you every alternate Thursday. Or something. But no marriage and no sex. Just give me the keys to your house.'

 

[MillionMilesAway]

I take your point and it is not without merit.
However, the LP's position seems to me to be a mixture of deceit and wishful thinking.
It amounts to: 'We definitely won't rejoin, not even the Single Market. We'll get elected, not least on the back of people still deluded enough to support Brexit, and then we'll try to get a better deal. But we haven't a scooby what that will be. We can't even put a name to it, or outline what we want. It just won't be to rejoin and it won't be the Single Market.'
I can't back that as it's too vague. It's a bit like a woman saying, 'I won't marry you, but I would like some sort of relationship. But I can't define it. It might amount to going to Alderley Edge with you every alternate Thursday. Or something. But no marriage and no sex. Just give me the keys to your house.'

I think it's not far off the only option they have that makes sense.

It's only going to be less than 5 years since actually leaving at the election (I think); that's a bit soon to offer something that would be characterised as "stuff the referendum vote", and I expect that to be a major point in their thinking.

They can say "we'll try to get a better deal" in some manner accurately. It may be that it can't be done which means they can change tack and may depend on what happens in the next two years.

"We'll seek to rejoin" would be demonised, and also there's no guarantee that any discussion would produce something palatable. e.g. it'll be at least 20 years before ditching the pound might be even close to acceptable to the electorate.

 

[Vic]

I take your point and it is not without merit.
However, the LP's position seems to me to be a mixture of deceit and wishful thinking.
It amounts to: 'We definitely won't rejoin, not even the Single Market. We'll get elected, not least on the back of people still deluded enough to support Brexit, and then we'll try to get a better deal. But we haven't a scooby what that will be. We can't even put a name to it, or outline what we want. It just won't be to rejoin and it won't be the Single Market.'
I can't back that as it's too vague. It's a bit like a woman saying, 'I won't marry you, but I would like some sort of relationship. But I can't define it. It might amount to going to Alderley Edge with you every alternate Thursday. Or something. But no marriage and no sex. Just give me the keys to your house.'

So you're not going to vote?

Because I'm not sure any party is going to stand on a platform of having "a definite plan to work towards regaining EU membership" (other than the SNP by leaving the UK and hoping the EU will say yes).

 

[BrianW]

It's quite conceivable I won't vote, or that I will spoil the ballot.
It depends on what other parties say in 2024 (?).
It is certain sure I am not voting for any party that is willing to prolong this ruinous madness. In the words of the late Rev. Dr. Ian Paisley: 'Never!'