How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

Saddleworth2 said:
Sorry if I misunderstood mate. What is it you are taking responsibility for?
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As I posted previously I think we all have to take some responsibility for what happened. I think many who wanted to Remain were too complacent that we would. It was such a fundamental decision I wish I’d got more involved to try and ensure the outcome I wanted that was so important to our children’s future. I should have tried to persuade more people close to me not to vote Leave. My girlfriend persuaded her mum to vote Remain at the last minute; I wish I’d done, or at least tried that, with more people. People didn’t arrive at this decision in a vacuum. Plenty were fixed in how they were going to vote but a decent chunk were open to persuasion. I take (some) responsibility for failing to do enough to avoid people around me voting for this insanity. If I’d thought a Leave vote was a genuine prospect then I’d have done more. So, to that extent I take responsibility.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
As I posted previously I think we all have to take some responsibility for what happened. I think many who wanted to Remain were too complacent that we would. It was such a fundamental decision I wish I’d got more involved to try and ensure the outcome I wanted that was so important to our children’s future. I should have tried to persuade more people close to me not to vote Leave. My girlfriend persuaded her mum to vote Remain at the last minute; I wish I’d done, or at least tried that, with more people. People didn’t arrive at this decision in a vacuum. Plenty were fixed in how they were going to vote but a decent chunk were open to persuasion. I take (some) responsibility for failing to do enough to avoid people around me voting for this insanity. If I’d thought a Leave vote was a genuine prospect then I’d have done more. So, to that extent I take responsibility.
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Thanks for that. I think you are being a bit harsh on yourself as everyone that votes has a personal responsibility for a modicum of understanding about what they are voting for. Lots of us did everything we could both before and after the event. Remember the numbers in those protests? All to no avail as the main political parties and the media had decided there was no going back. It’s democracy after all. Aye right.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
As I posted previously I think we all have to take some responsibility for what happened. I think many who wanted to Remain were too complacent that we would. It was such a fundamental decision I wish I’d got more involved to try and ensure the outcome I wanted that was so important to our children’s future. I should have tried to persuade more people close to me not to vote Leave. My girlfriend persuaded her mum to vote Remain at the last minute; I wish I’d done, or at least tried that, with more people. People didn’t arrive at this decision in a vacuum. Plenty were fixed in how they were going to vote but a decent chunk were open to persuasion. I take (some) responsibility for failing to do enough to avoid people around me voting for this insanity. If I’d thought a Leave vote was a genuine prospect then I’d have done more. So, to that extent I take responsibility.
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Yeah, I blame you. :))
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
As I posted previously I think we all have to take some responsibility for what happened. I think many who wanted to Remain were too complacent that we would. It was such a fundamental decision I wish I’d got more involved to try and ensure the outcome I wanted that was so important to our children’s future. I should have tried to persuade more people close to me not to vote Leave. My girlfriend persuaded her mum to vote Remain at the last minute; I wish I’d done, or at least tried that, with more people. People didn’t arrive at this decision in a vacuum. Plenty were fixed in how they were going to vote but a decent chunk were open to persuasion. I take (some) responsibility for failing to do enough to avoid people around me voting for this insanity. If I’d thought a Leave vote was a genuine prospect then I’d have done more. So, to that extent I take responsibility.
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Some 28% of registered voters never even bothered to vote in the referendum, so there was considerable apathy and room for motivation amongst those.

It should never be forgotten, too, that EU (non-UK) citizens who were resident in the UK, some 3.3 million people or 5% of the then population, were completely excluded from the ‘democratic’ process.
 
Gabriel said:
Some 28% of registered voters never even bothered to vote in the referendum, so there was considerable apathy and room for motivation amongst those.

It should never be forgotten, too, that EU (non-UK) citizens who were resident in the UK, some 3.3 million people or 5% of the then population, were completely excluded from the ‘democratic’ process.
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We all played our part in this shitshow. Wasn’t aware of what’s in your second paragraph, which is a disgrace as the overwhelming majority would have been paying UK tax. What happened to no taxation without representation?
 
Intresting poll on GB News...the far right gammon channel. Viewers would not vote for Brexit so does this suggest that it was Left leaning voters voted for Brexit all along?

This morning on GB News Breakfast, we're asking... If given the chance again would you vote FOR or AGAINST Brexit? Freeview 236, Sky 515, Virgin 604 GB News YouTube: https://bit.ly/3vAYaw0

  • FOR
    45%

  • AGAINST
    55%
18,700 votes·Final results
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
We all played our part in this shitshow. Wasn’t aware of what’s in your second paragraph, which is a disgrace as the overwhelming majority would have been paying UK tax. What happened to no taxation without representation?
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To bastardise Lord Camden, it then became a case of ‘no representation no taxation’, with many of those who were excluded now having returned to the European Union, a move which has shrunk the UK’s coffers and exacerbated its labour shortage.

The vast, vast majority of that 5% would have voted to remain. It’s one of those peculiar ironies that those same EU citizens were allowed to vote in the Scottish referendum in 2014, and largely voted No so as to remain in the UK and protect their EU rights, yet they then found themselves excluded from voting in the very future of the project they had just themselves shaped.

When I hear MPs waxing lyrical about how compassionate and democratic the UK perceives itself to be, it has a hollow ring.
 
Gabriel said:
To bastardise Lord Camden, it then became a case of ‘no representation no taxation’, with many of those who were excluded now having returned to the European Union, a move which has shrunk the UK’s coffers and exacerbated its labour shortage.

The vast, vast majority of that 5% would have voted to remain. It’s one of those peculiar ironies that those same EU citizens were allowed to vote in the Scottish referendum in 2014, and largely voted No so as to remain in the UK and protect their EU rights, yet they then found themselves excluded from voting in the very future of the project they had just themselves shaped.

When I hear MPs waxing lyrical about how compassionate and democratic the UK perceives itself to be, it has a hollow ring.
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it’s sort of the flip side of those long term British residents of Spain who were denied a say in whether their country should withdraw from the union that had allowed them to reside in Spain in the first place.

(still can’t believe how many expats voted Leave in the first place.)
 
Gabriel said:
To bastardise Lord Camden, it then became a case of ‘no representation no taxation’, with many of those who were excluded now having returned to the European Union, a move which has shrunk the UK’s coffers and exacerbated its labour shortage.

The vast, vast majority of that 5% would have voted to remain. It’s one of those peculiar ironies that those same EU citizens were allowed to vote in the Scottish referendum in 2014, and largely voted No so as to remain in the UK and protect their EU rights, yet they then found themselves excluded from voting in the very future of the project they had just themselves shaped.

When I hear MPs waxing lyrical about how compassionate and democratic the UK perceives itself to be, it has a hollow ring.
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Are we not limiting participation in elections by mandating identity criteria?

Just another way to get the vote that they want.

No longer a real democracy.
 
The Times is running a story about some senior Tories hoping for a rapprochement with the EU and perhaps a new agreement, within a decade, with the EU that would be similar to that enjoyed by the Swiss. The ERG are understandably livid about such a prospect.

Not entirely sure what would induce the EU to be more favourable to such an idea. The two cards the Times report, ‘in the interests of business’ and the ‘UK’s military strength’ are hardly new, and in a decade the EU will have moved ever closer to a combined military. Still, the general idea at least hints at a more adult relationship, which can only be good.
 
Downing Street considering a Swiss style agreement with the EU behind closed doors. Less trade restrictions and will open up migration, it’s what we need at the moment as the country is in the doldrums, if we can use that to solve the labour shortage it might start making a dent in inflation. It’s good to see the likes of Reece-Mogg and his cronies up in arms in it crying about betrayal.
 
In answer to the OP, the one tangible benefit might well be the death of the Tory party.
They spent 40 years as an ever increasingly one issue party and that issue was Europe. By effectively killing the bogeyman they’ve been exposed as having absolutely nothing to offer the British public, unless they’re millionaires, and no understanding of the perils of not being rich, let alone being poor. Their ideology has finally come back to bite them on the arse, I’m delighted to say. Underfund the NHS and school system and you end up with a large number kids that can’t think and a large number of the workforce that’s unable to work. Denude capital investment and stifle growth and innovation, sell everything off to the private sector and have bills going through the roof and actual shit in our seas and rivers. ‘Taking back control’ by completely giving all control to ‘the markets’.
They're currently pouring more and more coal into the furnaces of the titanic, even though they can see the iceberg ahead, in the mistaken belief that saying they won’t hit the iceberg, and even if they do they certainly won’t sink, is true just because they say it’s so. No doubt the future will prove difficult for many of us, that iceberg isn’t going anywhere and the Tories are about to discover that saving £10 on not getting enough life jackets for everyone is, in fact, a very false economy.
 
Chris in London said:
it’s sort of the flip side of those long term British residents of Spain who were denied a say in whether their country should withdraw from the union that had allowed them to reside in Spain in the first place.

(still can’t believe how many expats voted Leave in the first place.)
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In a way yes, though I think there were far fewer UK citizens living in the EU at that time, which was, of course, one of the reasons for Brexit.

Many in such places live in echo chambers where they are not fully integrated in the local community and where their information outlets are largely preaching the same message. Sweeping generalisations, granted, but I’ve observed enough expat communities to understand both how and why they think thus.
 
The Future’s Blue! said:
Are we not limiting participation in elections by mandating identity criteria?

Just another way to get the vote that they want.

No longer a real democracy.
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The Government claims that there is no evidence to support the suggestion that electoral identification will reduce participation. I can understand that it will be hard for some, especially the young who generally do not have the required forms of identification, but I also think that if someone turns up at the polling station and kicks up a rumpus, they’ll probably be allowed to vote.

If the Government were genuinely concerned about identification, it could introduce a national identification card, which would simplify matters at polling stations and reduce illegal migration, too. For some reason, however, the burgeoning black market in employment is off the table…
 
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