Middle East Conflict

I’d say the ones demonstrating in the immediate aftermath could easily be described as Hamas supporters.
They could be. They might not be. Either way, they’re pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things,

As I posted yesterday, it seems more important to prove anti-semitism or islamophobia and the thread goes round in circles with every increasing rhetoric.
 
There's currently hundreds of children killed in the Gaza Strip, If those numbers escalate to thousands of Children through being blown up or starvation do you think Israelis should be out on the street waving their Flags/Banners?
If the IDF deliberately target thousands of children then absolutely not.
 
They could be. They might not be. Either way, they’re pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things,

As I posted yesterday, it seems more important to prove anti-semitism or islamophobia and the thread goes round in circles with every increasing rhetoric.
It’s been discussed because it was in Manchester which makes it relevant to us if not in the grand scheme of things.
 
I wouldn’t call it murder for one thing. There’s no doubt that the IDF were heavy handed but when protesters including many Hamas operatives attempt to breach the border fence and end up getting killed, it’s not really comparable to getting shot for attending a music festival or having someone break into your house and murder your whole family.
Wow, so killing a female medic aiding a wounded Palestinian, snipers shooting at kids and journalists is just a bit heavy handed now is it? The hasbara is strong in you!

 
Middle Eastern politics tends to be utterly cynical, so that wouldn't surprise me.

As for the passages you refer to, it's true that they can't be changed. But they are open to different interpretations.

Mainstream Islamic teaching, for example, maintains that in the earliest sources from which Islamic teachings are derived, the Qur’an and stories about the sunna, the records of the example set by Prophet Muhammad, jihad is connected with another Arabic word, sabr, which is associated with patiently and non-violently resisting wrongdoing. In the early years of Islam, this is how Muhammad and the first Muslims dealt with the harsh treatment they received from members of their own tribe. They didn’t respond with violence. They just put up with it.

Only later, when Muhammad and his early Muslim companions moved to Medina was the term qital or ‘fighting’ introduced, and here it is made quite clear that Muslims were only allowed to fight to protect themselves (and also non-Muslims who had been attacked) from the prospect of being wiped out. Furthermore, if the enemy stops fighting, Muslims were then required to do so themselves and make peace.

So if you are facing an existential threat, you are permitted to defend yourself.

When it comes to specific verses, their meaning is often contestable. For example, verse 3:151 reads ‘We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers….Hell shall be their home.’

Sounds pretty emphatic. However, another way of looking at the verse is in terms of its specific context. It was given to Muhammad just before an important battle, when the early Muslims faced a much stronger enemy. He was worried about the outcome and Allah was basically reassuring him that things would go well. So it was never meant to be a rule for all later Muslims to follow.

Unsurprisingly, the principle of abrogation (naskh) that you refer to has been severely criticised by both early and modern Muslim scholars. One example is the Syrian scholar Wahba al-Zuhayli, who has taken issue with the position that Qur'an 9:5 abrogates 124 other Quranic verses which preach peaceful solutions to conflicts. Here, al-Zuhayli seems to be taking up the position that the Qur'an has to be read holistically, and that the cumulative message is one of seeking peace and only resorting to the use of violence in extremis. Another response has been to explain 9:5 as being context specific. It refers only to Arab polytheist idolaters who were seeking to wipe out the early Muslims, as has already been suggested.

Of course, Salafi-jihadists have their own way of looking at things. Once again, I like what Adam Silverstein says about this in his little book on Islamic history. The additions in square brackets are my own;

'[A] lenient interpretation [of the relevant passages] will certainly appeal to the overwhelming majority of Muslims, for whom jihad is a personal battle against temptation, and who will be drawn into warfare only when provoked by those threatening Islam itself. And even then, innocents will be spared [this is due to rules laid down by the first Caliph Abu Bakr that are remarkably similar to those found in the later Just War tradition of Christianity].....But to extremists, Islam is under attack, a defensive jihad is necessary, and those non-combatants who were killed in the attacks were not innocent at all - in democracies voters bear full responsibility for their government's actions (in this case, Britain's aggression (as they see it) against Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan)'.

In summary, I reckon that if you have a large enough body of scripture you can inevitably find justifications for your own agenda and causes.

For example, some of the violence perpetrated by Japan in WW2 was justified in terms of a pragmatic Buddhist scriptural concept called upaya-kausalya. Violent manifestations of Christian Liberation Theology also find their justification in a passage from Luke's gospel about 'setting free the oppressed.'

Gush Emunim are no longer around but they would, I imagine, have based their ideology on conceptions of the land of Israel having been given to them by God. And the US anti-abortion movement 'Army of God' (responsible for 8 murders, 41 explosions and 173 arson attacks that caused hundreds of abortion clinics to close in the 1980's and 90's) invoke the 'suffer little children' Biblical passage to justify their actions.

One thing that is clear is that Salafi-jihadists absolutely contort themselves to find theological justifications for what they get up to. As Shiraz Maher puts it in his seminal study, 'The violence of groups like al-Qaeda and associated movements is neither irrational nor whimsical. For every act of violence, they will offer some form of reference to scriptural sources - however tenuous, esoteric or contested - to explain their actions.' It's their perverse way of trying to capture hearts and minds, I suppose.

But anyway, I've got to get on.

If there is something I learned from teaching Religious Studies as an academic subject for so long, it's that it is usually the puritans & literalists within a faith who cause all the problems.

Maybe that's why the irreverent Sufi Muslim poet Hafiz once made this haiku-like observation:

‘The great religions are the ships,
Poets the lifeboats,
Every sane person I know, Has jumped overboard.’
For all of that bluster, they don't have to look too far, or esoterically in the Koran for their excuses to hate, and kill Jews. It's there, and as straight forward as it gets.

Unfortunately, it is used and acted upon by a violent minority.
 
Wow, so killing a female medic aiding a wounded Palestinian is just a bit heavy handed now is it? The hasbara is strong in you!

Of course not. If the individual soldier deliberately knowingly targeted a medic that’s murder and the soldier should be charged accordingly. How many of the 189 were medics who were non-participants in the demo?
 
Of course not. If the individual soldier deliberately knowingly targeted a medic that’s murder and the soldier should be charged accordingly. How many of the 189 were medics who were non-participants in the demo?
35 kids, 3 medics and 2 journalists - But I’m sure you’ll find a way to spin it as your sort always do. You’re double standards and blatant disregard for Palestinian life is abhorrent and clear.
 
35 kids, 3 medics and 2 journalists - But I’m sure you’ll find a way to spin it as your sort always do. You’re double standards and blatant disregard for Palestinian life is abhorrent and clear.

It’s either you’re ilk or your sort with you.

I’d say it’s best everyone ignores you from now on as it’s clear you have no intention of debating in any sort of good faith.
 
This has played right into the Bibi the butcher’s hands. The thought of what the IDF are going to the Palestinian civilians doesn’t bare thinking about based on their history.
Which is exactly what I was saying in my first posts on the subject whilst Hamas were still executing families in the shelters.

Whoever the brain is behind these attacks is a complete and utter twunt. Yeah great he killed several hundred Jews in Israel, an attack such as this was always going to see a retaliation cost tenfold that number in innocent civilian Palestinian deaths in the coming weeks and months. That’s why I and so many others said it was all so bloody sad in the first place.

Nobody wins other than the extremist leaderships on both sides who justify their reasons for being.
 
35 kids, 3 medics and 2 journalists - But I’m sure you’ll find a way to spin it as your sort always do. You’re double standards and blatant disregard for Palestinian life is abhorrent and clear.
Then there should be an investigation into 40 potential murders and if enough evidence of intent is found the perpetrators should be charged with murder, or with manslaughter if it was down to negligence.
 
Daft post.

Ethnic cleansing means removing an ethnicity from an area.

It doesn't mean Genocide Lite. Azerbaijan just ethnically cleansed Nagarno-Karabakh of 100,000 Armenian people.

They didn't get rounded up in camps, and murdered, they just fled to Armenia by their own means when their paramilitaries were defeated.
I should have quoted the poster than had used the term genocide then.
 
I think previous experience begs to differ, they are a well trained and well armed militia, and there is a grudging respect on the Israeli side for them, a kind of stalemate exists which has worked to prevent any flare ups, the fear is they have a huge arsenal of long range missiles, and seriously the IDF would find it very difficult to fight on 3 fronts because you can guarantee if it kicks of in the north it will kick off in the west bank
They won’t last ten minutes because the US would do it’s best to ensure it’s military industrial complex is on target for expanded Christmas bonuses as much as I know you don’t think they’d get involved.
 
Then there should be an investigation into 40 potential murders and if enough evidence of intent is found the perpetrators should be charged with murder, or with manslaughter if it was down to negligence.
But you and me both know that would and will never happen. There’s been multiple children murdered by the IDF in the West Bank and I don't recall many if any prosecutions.
 
Then there should be an investigation into 40 potential murders and if enough evidence of intent is found the perpetrators should be charged with murder, or with manslaughter if it was down to negligence.

Who leads that investigation?

Where were the charges brought against the IDF for bombing children as they slept in 2014? Or when they conducted airstrikes on a busy marketplace during a ceasefire that same week?

When have Israel ever really been held accountable for their atrocities? They get away with it year after year and, again, that's why anyone with any kind of foresight could have seen an attack of this scale from Hamas would come sooner or later.

It's alright to say what "should" happen but it doesn't happen and it hasn't happened for a long time. When there's no justice to be had, people will find their own version of it.
 
Which is exactly what I was saying in my first posts on the subject whilst Hamas were still executing families in the shelters.

Whoever the brain is behind these attacks is a complete and utter twunt. Yeah great he killed several hundred Jews in Israel, an attack such as this was always going to see a retaliation cost tenfold that number in innocent civilian Palestinian deaths in the coming weeks and months. That’s why I and so many others said it was all so bloody sad in the first place.

Nobody wins other than the extremist leaderships on both sides who justify their reasons for being.
I guess it's all about escalating the violence and radicalising their own people through grief. Horrible stuff.
 
But you and me both know that would and will never happen. There’s been multiple children murdered by the IDF in the West Bank and I don't recall many if any prosecutions.
Who leads that investigation?

Where were the charges brought against the IDF for bombing children as they slept in 2014? Or when they conducted airstrikes on a busy marketplace during a ceasefire that same week?

When have Israel ever really been held accountable for their atrocities? They get away with it year after year and, again, that's why anyone with any kind of foresight could have seen an attack of this scale from Hamas would come sooner or later.

It's alright to say what "should" happen but it doesn't happen and it hasn't happened for a long time. When there's no justice to be had, people will find their own version of it.
And not a word from 'sleepy Joe' and our own two twats Sunak and Keith, Hamas are rightly criticised because they are sick, twisted degenerates but it seems that odious butcher Bibi and his fellow hard right nuts have carte blanche to do as they please.
 
I'm usually clued up on history and geography but on this one I have no idea.

Is there an unbiased history of the region and why they are fighting I can read/watch somewhere?

Just bought this 30 minutes ago, though fuck knows when I'm going to find the time to read it.

1697034547415.png

Pretty much all the historians get accused of bias but this voluminous study has been well-received. A mate of mine who broadly sympathises with the Palestinian situation (or did before the latest set of events - haven't spoken to him recently) thought it was absolutely first-rate. It's readable too if you check out the sample pages on Amazon.

Unfortunately, it's also very expensive for a Penguin paperback. And 944 pages long.

A much shorter alternative is this book by Martin Bunton (who is unrelated to Emma as far as I know). I thought it was excellent and it has generally attracted favourable reviews.

1697035203812.png

On the ground journalism can also be informative. Though it was published more than 20 years ago, Bunton recommends Amira Hass's Drinking the Sea at Gaza: Days and Nights in Land Under Siege. I have a copy but haven't read it yet.

Lastly, Robert Fisk's Pity the Nation was a personal eye-opener for me. It's actually about the civil war in the Lebanon between 1975 and 1990. In particular, his first-hand description of the Sabra and Chatila massacre left an indelible impression.

Hope this helps.
 
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