Middle East Conflict

[Vic]

I suppose that depends on whether you think land gained by conquest becomes part of the victor's country or whether it remains a separate territory as part of an "empire". I doubt the Ottomans called Palestine what, for the sake of the argument I shall call, Turkey, or the British referred to it as Britain.

I suspect the Ottomans gave the territory a name along the lines of Palestine when they "owned" it, as the British did when they "owned" it. My point being: surely there was a territory that was identifiably Palestine whether it was the Ottomans or the British that it "belonged to"?

Palestine was a territory a thousand years before the Ottoman Empire.

 

[Vic]

Here is a question. Why is it that people if the Jewish faith have had so many problems with persecution, most notably Germany and Russia historically, of course, but also the US and most of Europe there is still a small but significant anti-Jewish sentiment.

Is it a problem of lack of integration? Jealousy that they are generally more successful than other ethnic groupings? The fact that certain have a unique appearance that makes the stand out? Or is it simply religious?

Speaking as someone who has no prejudice towards anyone on any racial, ethnic, or religious grounds, I have never understood this.

I would be interested to hear views.

When things go wrong, let's blame an ethnic minority.

(I know it's not that simple, but it has been a factor in some instances.)

 

[halfcenturyup]

I'm talking about the Brifish Mandate territory of Palestine which forms Israel + West Bank + Gaza. There are nearly 700k jews in the West Bank as well as 7.3m in Israel.

Understand that. Just wondered if you were making a political point I was missing.

 

[domalino]

 

[cucumberman]

So 42 Palestinians killed and 5'500 injured along the Gaza fence in the last month. Live rounds used, 4 children shot in the head/killed further 233 injured.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/m.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/UN-human-rights-chief-decries-Israels-use-of-excessive-force-in-Gaza-552888/amp

And that’s not a recent attack because of the 7th October. For decades Israeli forces have done headshots on civilans, including footballers and children.

Remember when 16-year old young girl Jana Majdi Zakarneh was shot in the head by sniper because she was on the rooftop playing with her cat? 12 December 2022? Jenin City?

And using a scope she was concluded as crossfire? A young girl, on a rooftop, playing with her cat?

Not many remembered.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Here is a question. Why is it that people if the Jewish faith have had so many problems with persecution, most notably Germany and Russia historically, of course, but also the US and most of Europe there is still a small but significant anti-Jewish sentiment.

Is it a problem of lack of integration? Jealousy that they are generally more successful than other ethnic groupings? The fact that certain have a unique appearance that makes the stand out? Or is it simply religious?

Speaking as someone who has no prejudice towards anyone on any racial, ethnic, or religious grounds, I have never understood this.

I would be interested to hear views.

imo (and I’m certainly no expert) in very simple terms, at least from a European perspective it is because Jewish people were far more widely dispersed and independently successful from medieval through to industrial times throughout most of Europe than any other ‘non-indigenous’ racial group. Combine that with (unlike medieval Christianity) no cultural restriction from lending money and an ability to blame Jewish people for the death of Jesus (which is absurd on so many different levels) then you have a cocktail for suspicion, blame and recrimination which took root and endured.

In even simpler terms, it is because they refused to be cowed and subservient that they were historically persecuted - and that gives rise to enduring suspicion and resentment today in some (paranoid and malign) quarters, with some people genuinely believing they run the world.

Jewish people have arguably the most fascinating and admirable history and culture of any people on the planet and it’s perfectly understandable and laudable (and correct) why they were given a homeland after WW2. It was Europe’s attempt at an apology for the appalling way they had been treated for many centuries culminating in the Holocaust.

Like so many times when people are trying to right a wrong and when lines are redrawn on a map, however, it wasn’t fully thought through. I think the last part is hard to argue against, given the current state of play.

 

[Ducado]

The Americans seem to be getting ever more anxious as the days go on, they are seen as complicit however I see that the additional funding has not been approved as of yet, perhaps there is some carrot and stick?

I think they need a bit more stick? The Israelis are doubling down with the oppression on the West Bank

 

[BlueAnorak]

Understand that. Just wondered if you were making a political point I was missing.

No political point except to point out how many Jews there are between the "River and the Sea" (The vast majority of that total).

 

[halfcenturyup]

No political point except to point out how many Jews there are between the "River and the Sea" (The vast majority of that total).

Fair enough, other than to point out there is enough land between the river and the sea for both populations.

 

[halfcenturyup]

imo (and I’m certainly no expert) in very simple terms, at least from a European perspective it is because Jewish people were far more widely dispersed and independently successful from medieval through to industrial times throughout most of Europe than any other ‘non-indigenous’ racial group. Combine that with (unlike medieval Christianity) no cultural restriction from lending money and an ability to blame Jewish people for the death of Jesus (which is absurd on so many different levels) then you have a cocktail for suspicion, blame and recrimination which took root and endured.

In even simpler terms, it is because they refused to be cowed and subservient that they were historically persecuted - and that gives rise to enduring suspicion and resentment today in some (paranoid and malign) quarters, with some people genuinely believing they run the world.

Jewish people have arguably the most fascinating and admirable history and culture of any people on the planet and it’s perfectly understandable and laudable (and correct) why they were given a homeland after WW2. It was Europe’s attempt at an apology for the appalling way they had been treated for many centuries culminating in the Holocaust.

Like so many times when people are trying to right a wrong and when lines are redrawn on a map, however, it wasn’t fully thought through. I think the last part is hard to argue against, given the current state of play.

Thanks for your views. I suppose such fears were more "understandable" prior to the twentieth century, but it's staggering anybody can still hold those views in present day "civilised" countries.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

A worthy question about what drives anti-semitism has been asked a few times and discussed on this thread.

Do we know what motivates the leaders of the U.K. and U.S. Governments and main oppositions in the countries to consider Palestinians to be lesser people?

 

[Vic]

imo (and I’m certainly no expert) in very simple terms, at least from a European perspective it is because Jewish people were far more widely dispersed and independently successful from medieval through to industrial times throughout most of Europe than any other ‘non-indigenous’ racial group. Combine that with (unlike medieval Christianity) no cultural restriction from lending money and an ability to blame Jewish people for the death of Jesus (which is absurd on so many different levels) then you have a cocktail for suspicion, blame and recrimination which took root and endured.

In even simpler terms, it is because they refused to be cowed and subservient that they were historically persecuted - and that gives rise to enduring suspicion and resentment today in some (paranoid and malign) quarters, with some people genuinely believing they run the world.

Jewish people have arguably the most fascinating and admirable history and culture of any people on the planet and it’s perfectly understandable and laudable (and correct) why they were given a homeland after WW2. It was Europe’s attempt at an apology for the appalling way they had been treated for many centuries culminating in the Holocaust.

Like so many times when people are trying to right a wrong and when lines are redrawn on a map, however, it wasn’t fully thought through. I think the last part is hard to argue against, given the current state of play.

The Balfour declaration was pre-WW2. Poor reward for the Arabs who'd fought with Britain against the Ottomans in WW1. Had they known the eventual outcome, they might have fought against Britain (and France).

And Balfour and others certainly didn't want poor Jews fleeing persecution in Eastern Europe to end up in Britain. It wasn't an apology for antisemitism, it was a way to keep Jews away.

 

[hateutd]

the historical truth says that Hamas was created, financed and supported by the Israeli secret services in order to oppose Yasser Arafat .... now and after so many years that no solution was given to the Palestinian problem, and while the genocide of the Palestinians continues, the Hamas will gain followers from the Palestinians who mourn the dead of their families.....The solution is one, and let's not forget that the war there did not start yesterday but with the settlement in 1967.....Two peoples, two homelands , a common capital, Jerusalem.....only in this way the Islamic fundamentalists and the ultra-Orthodox Jewish fascists will not exist....

 

[Bluemoon_420]

This is a debate between the brilliant Norman Finklestein v Eli Lake.

Spoiler Alert - Dr Finklestein destroys the hasbara bullshiters without breaking a sweat.

Highly recommended watch:

 

[Palerider]

Here's one. Under International Law who has the right to the land called Israel/Palestine?

 

[Palerider]

And another one. Does everyone accept that the ONLY solution is a two state solution where both parties fully accept the right of the other party to exist.

 

[bluethrunthru]

A worthy question about what drives anti-semitism has been asked a few times and discussed on this thread.

Do we know what motivates the leaders of the U.K. and U.S. Governments and main oppositions in the countries to consider Palestinians to be lesser people?

Yes we do know - they are just racist cunts

 

[bluethrunthru]

Hold up a Palestinian flag and you are a terrorist - but this is ok

 

[Ducado]

Yes we do know - they are just racist cunts

You can find extreme opinions from both sides if you care to look, and people posting them implying that it’s the majority opinion are a bit out of order

Does Tommy Robinson represent the opinions of the ordinary white British people?

It’s a very complex situation, Israelis (for very good reason) are very insecure people, Israel is the answer to thousands of years of persecution, the vast majority were born there to parents who were born there, in fact Israelis Jewish culture is quite distinct from much of the diaspora, in my experience some insecure people say some pretty violent and aggressive things, hurt people hurt people as they say

They are hurting the Palestinians are hurting, how can we as a world end the hurting? By encouraging more violence? By turning a blind eye? None of that had worked before I think it’s time we tried something different

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

But it was never "a land without people for a people without land". The Highlands were sparsely populated, especially after the Clearances. So was "the West" as in how the West was won. It's a sparse argument in favour of colonisation.

The argument is that it wasn't some thriving, well-established sovereign territory run by Arabs, which was then overrun by Jews who stuck a pin in a map. That's a fallacious argument I've debunked on here a number of times.

And it undoubtedly had been a Jewish homeland up to the 1st century BCE, with a significant number of Jews, albeit a minority, so it wasn't like it was some random choice.

But at the end of the day, what happened in 1175, 1472, 1848 or whatever other year you want to pick, is largely irrelevant. The facts on the ground are that the 1947 partition decision and the subsequent 1948 borders, plus the displacement of around 1.5 million Arabs and Jews from their homes, is the actual starting point.

The mental gymnastics of those who say partition (which offered a two-state solution) was wrong but now desperately want a two-state solution are very amusing.