Suella Braverman - sacked as Home Secretary (p394)

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hcblue95 said:
You often talk as if you are the voice for the working class. Well I am working class and I disagree with you on almost everything to do with this government.
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I don't vote Tory I think they are shit, do you agree with me on that? I am speaking up for Dave the shelf filler as you should be doing.
 
mexico1970 said:
The Tories are cunts.

But I know someone sneering at the working class when I see it, and I CAN'T help you with that.
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Yes, born in Gorton and growing up in a council house I am a leading member of the landed aristocracy.

You make the mistake of thinking all working-class people think like you do. Here's a hint. They don't. Some of us worked hard to get out of the bottom of the pool, while others chose not to do so but to blame others instead. I once came across a chap (also from Gorton) who thought that anyone who advanced themselves in any way was a sell-out. Yes, really. That man existed.

If you can't compete with people for whom English is a second or third language, you have to look at yourself. It isn't all a conspiracy against the honest white proletariat. There's plenty of opportunity in this country for anyone who is prepared to get their arse in gear. It just involves a bit of effort. I didn't have an uncle who was a director of a merchant bank. I didn't have a network of useful contacts from Eton. But I didn't sit around blaming foreigners for my woes. And there's nothing special about me. Plenty born with less have got a lot, lot further than I ever will.

By the way, I still regard myself as working-class. I was born into it, and all I have was won by selling my labour. So I am working-class and always will be.
 
Keeper! said:
They also get a pension after 5 years service.

It's a public service job and hence should be treated like one, not a chance to line your pockets as it is now.
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I think this is a worthwhile debate that often suffers from a lack of nuance. Is £86k a year a lot of money? For most people of course it is.

But it is also demonstrably true that being an MP attracts the kinds of people for who generating an income is not a big concern. Those being people who already have disproportionately high wealth and social station and crave power and prestige. You only have to look at parliament’s make up to see that. Believe Johnson when he says it’s chicken feed because it is to these people.

Unless they already have that wealth, it is simply not worth it for the best and brightest in this country to be an MP. Will the people who have the competence and capability to be leading lawyers, doctors, scientists etc. give up that opportunity for £86k with a decent chance you’ll be jobless every 5 years?

Absolutely not a hope in hell. I wouldn’t even consider it for a second and I’m decidedly not one of those people.

Empirically speaking, if you want more landed gentry types, decrease the MP salary - because you’ll get them in droves. If you want more diverse candidates, you need to increase it to make it a realistic option for a broader audience.

Understandably people inherently don’t like or agree with this because they like to think people become an MP out of some moral sacrifice, but unfortunately that just isn’t how it pans out in practice.
 
BrianW said:
Yes, born in Gorton and growing up in a council house I am a leading member of the landed aristocracy.

You make the mistake of thinking all working-class people think like you do. Here's a hint. They don't. Some of us worked hard to get out of the bottom of the pool, while others chose not to do so but to blame others instead. I once came across a chap (also from Gorton) who thought that anyone who advanced themselves in any way was a sell-out. Yes, really. That man existed.

If you can't compete with people for whom English is a second or third language, you have to look at yourself. It isn't all a conspiracy against the honest white proletariat. There's plenty of opportunity in this country for anyone who is prepared to get their arse in gear. It just involves a bit of effort. I didn't have an uncle who was a director of a merchant bank. I didn't have a network of useful contacts from Eton. But I didn't sit around blaming foreigners for my woes. And there's nothing special about me. Plenty born with less have got a lot, lot further than I ever will.

By the way, I still regard myself as working-class. I was born into it, and all I have was won by selling my labour. So I am working-class and always will be.
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Have you ever heard of pulling the ladder up? I am working class but that isn't part of a competition I just referred to the way you sneered at the hypothetical Dave.

You're knocking a class of people not an actual person, as for your last statement Labour aren't that working class anymore so we can put that argument to bed with the other that just because you have made it to brain surgeon status others legitimately can't.
 
I'm With Stupid said:
The asylum process is to pretend to care, but actually make it as difficult as possible to claim asylum and hope they go somewhere else. In the UK, our immigration system seems to be mainly set up to milk foreigners while making it as difficult as possible to actually go to the UK. My wife just got rejected for a visa to visit for Christmas. In the rejection letter, they said the reason was that I was in the UK and I was paying for her trip, while she has no savings (she does, but they're in my account), meaning it looks like she's actually coming to live. Only problem is I don't live in the UK, as was made explicitly clear, with evidence on the application form and with all of the supporting evidence. But yeah, whatever, 115 quid down the drain with no right to appeal and no recourse whatsoever against the person who clearly didn't even read the application properly. And that's just a tourist visa. If that was a settlement visa, that could be a grand down the drain all because someone just didn't bother to do their job.
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That’s dreadful mate.
 
mexico1970 said:
Have you ever heard of pulling the ladder up? I am working class but that isn't part of a competition I just referred to the way you sneered at the hypothetical Dave.

You're knocking a class of people not an actual person, as for your last statement Labour aren't that working class anymore so we can put that argument to bed with the other that just because you have made it to brain surgeon status others legitimately can't.
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I’d just like Labour to be given the opportunity to show what they are about.
If, as you say they are more of the same then the country really does have issues going forward.
 
Phil1 said:
I’d just like Labour to be given the opportunity to show what they are about.
If, as you say they are more of the same then the country really does have issues going forward.
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I voted Labour last time out because they need a chance to see if they are better than what this lot has become.
 
SkyBlueFlux said:
I think this is a worthwhile debate that often suffers from a lack of nuance. Is £86k a year a lot of money? For most people of course it is.

But it is also demonstrably true that being an MP attracts the kinds of people for who generating an income is not a big concern. Those being people who already have disproportionately high wealth and social station and crave power and prestige. You only have to look at parliament’s make up to see that. Believe Johnson when he says it’s chicken feed because it is to these people.

Unless they already have that wealth, it is simply not worth it for the best and brightest in this country to be an MP. Will the people who have the competence and capability to be leading lawyers, doctors, scientists etc. give up that opportunity for £86k with a decent chance you’ll be jobless every 5 years?

Absolutely not a hope in hell. I wouldn’t even consider it for a second and I’m decidedly not one of those people.

Empirically speaking, if you want more landed gentry types, decrease the MP salary - because you’ll get them in droves. If you want more diverse candidates, you need to increase it to make it a realistic option for a broader audience.

Understandably people inherently don’t like or agree with this because they like to think people become an MP out of some moral sacrifice, but unfortunately that just isn’t how it pans out in practice.
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86K may not be enough, so make it worth wile and attract the elite but elite minds.

99% of politicians of ALL parties are their to massage egos and gain financial reward, they don't give a flying F about the country.

And high time parliament was modernised and scenes of men in tights like the recent state opening are consigned to the bin, it's utterly and totally embarrassing.

And one more, the pathetic and ludicrous rule that a liar can't be called out in the Houses of Parliament, WTF is that all about, what an utter joke.
 
mexico1970 said:
Have you ever heard of pulling the ladder up? I am working class but that isn't part of a competition I just referred to the way you sneered at the hypothetical Dave.

You're knocking a class of people not an actual person, as for your last statement Labour aren't that working class anymore so we can put that argument to bed with the other that just because you have made it to brain surgeon status others legitimately can't.
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What on earth makes you think I'm a brain surgeon? I'm not nearly that clever.

I am all for giving every single person the maximum opportunity to educate and advance themselves. I am probably (in that sense) as egalitarian as it gets. Now, I will grant you this. There is not nearly enough done in that direction. Partly because people would sooner pay £5 a month less tax. So far from pulling up the ladder, I want more ladders, many more. I suspect I am in the minority though.

The bottom line is this. Training people up to high-level jobs costs money. Big money. Both government and private industry are often not willing to make that investment when they can just bring someone in from abroad who is already trained. Plug and play. How you change this by voting, fuck knows. 'We will make you pay more tax to train our own people' is not necessarily a vote winner.

And the other bottom line is this, and I'm really sorry if it offends. Not everyone has the capacity to do these jobs any way. That was what I was referring to in my comment. It's not their fault, any more than it's my fault that I've got brown eyes. It just is. To draw a parallel, I was shit at football. Really shit. Even if you'd trained me eight hours a day, seven days a week, I would still not have been good enough, not even to play for Droylesden. Or even the Dog and Duck. Is it putting me down to say so? No, it's a fact.
 
SkyBlueFlux said:
I think this is a worthwhile debate that often suffers from a lack of nuance. Is £86k a year a lot of money? For most people of course it is.

But it is also demonstrably true that being an MP attracts the kinds of people for who generating an income is not a big concern. Those being people who already have disproportionately high wealth and social station and crave power and prestige. You only have to look at parliament’s make up to see that. Believe Johnson when he says it’s chicken feed because it is to these people.

Unless they already have that wealth, it is simply not worth it for the best and brightest in this country to be an MP. Will the people who have the competence and capability to be leading lawyers, doctors, scientists etc. give up that opportunity for £86k with a decent chance you’ll be jobless every 5 years?

Absolutely not a hope in hell. I wouldn’t even consider it for a second and I’m decidedly not one of those people.

Empirically speaking, if you want more landed gentry types, decrease the MP salary - because you’ll get them in droves. If you want more diverse candidates, you need to increase it to make it a realistic option for a broader audience.

Understandably people inherently don’t like or agree with this because they like to think people become an MP out of some moral sacrifice, but unfortunately that just isn’t how it pans out in practice.
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Spot on.

A hard debate needs to be had about this, because public service is becoming a hobby. A bit like Philanthropy a game for the very wealthy to play in. The other side of the coin is, those from wealth are often best placed to "profit" from been an MP post their political career.

A similar discussion needs to be had about teaching and even in the next few years the medical profession.
 
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