Ice Hockey | Player arrested for manslaughter following death of Adam Johnson (P18)

Blue Llama said:
What Rudiger did was an assault on or off the pitch. Ref should have sent him off. Made no attempt to play the ball.
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I didn’t mean to derail the thread! He did, but it was the first act of thuggery that came to mind when trying to make a comparison of “doing an opponent”.
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
He has to be charged first. That’s not a given.

I think I tend to agree more with what you've written than the counter argument, but it’s not binary.

The fact it’s happened playing a contact sport muddies the waters somewhat. Proof of intent is impossible unless Petgrave tells the police. Even then, it might just be that he’s decided to impede his opponent to stop him scoring.

It‘s an interesting legal case born out of a tragic accident.
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Is there not a thing called involuntary manslaughter? Which is unintentional or a result of recklessness.

All depends on what if anything he is ultimately charged with.
 
Coatigan said:
Is there not a thing called involuntary manslaughter? Which is unintentional or a result of recklessness.

All depends on what if anything he is ultimately charged with.
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There is. As you say, we aren’t privy to the interviews and evidence, so it makes it harder to suggest what will happen.

Unless he’s admitted trying to hurt him, he could only really be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

There must be some sort of line though somewhere, otherwise there would be very few accidental deaths and a lot more involuntary manslaughter convictions.
 
Nethermoor said:
It depends. There are some folk who genuinely think it's murder. But most folk realise that at worst he meant to hit the lad hard even with his foot etc. Which doesn't mean he wanted to actually hurt him. I suppose the football equivalent would be nudging someone into the hoardings. You want to leave it in a bit, but would you want them to fall over the hoarding and break a bone or even neck? Doubt it!
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I think you are risking it a bit with a skate to the throat...
 
p.taker said:
Nasty player

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Look at 22 seconds on the replay, his trail leg is off the ground. This is almost identical to the maneuver he did but he was nudged at the same time and he lost balance. His trail leg then came flying up.

To me, untrained and no way an expert in ice hockey, I'd say Petgrave is a just a dirty player with poor technique and this was a badly executed hip check gone terribly wrong.
 
Nethermoor said:
I've seen two lots of opinions about this and it's come to this:

1st opinion: The guy obviously meant it and should be charged. This opinion is by anyone who knows nothing about Ice Hockey. A game played at speed.

2nd Opinion: Freak accident. An opinion taken even by JOHNSON'S TEAM MATES at the Panthers. All ICe Hockey fans who watch the game and those who were there have said it was an accident.

Petgrave plays close to the bone and is a Keane type player, hard hitting etc. But off the rink is an absolute gent according to those in and around the EIHL.

My conclusion is it was an accident and if you've never played or watched Ice Hockey then you're guessing with little info. This has happened a few times. Not often, but has happened.
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IMG_6063.jpeg

So by your logic, would Chris Therien fall into bracket number 1 or number 2? And there’s plenty more ex pros talking out over this incident, just wondering.
 
super_city_si said:
Look at 22 seconds on the replay, his trail leg is off the ground. This is almost identical to the maneuver he did but he was nudged at the same time and he lost balance. His trail leg then came flying up.

To me, untrained and no way an expert in ice hockey, I'd say Petgrave is a just a dirty player with poor technique and this was a badly executed hip check gone terribly wrong.
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So do you think that he should be charged? That’s a tough call.
 
NOID said:
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So by your logic, would Chris Therien fall into bracket number 1 or number 2? And there’s plenty more ex pros talking out over this incident, just wondering.
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Not sure tbh, he hasn't clarified. I doubt he means he meant to kill him? But who knows.

There seems to be a divide on whether he was checked and lost balance or tried to kick him.

My own opinion and seeing from another angle shows he was put off balance and fell. He did end up on the floor
 
Can't remember exactly where, but I saw a post on Twitter by an ex-ice hockey player who provided loads of images of other players slipping forwards on the ice and their back legs suddenly coming up at a dangerous angle. Apparently it's known to happen semi-regularly, where a player will fall facing forwards and their back leg will suddenly jerk upwards because they're moving at speed and can't control themselves. But on the other hand there are loads of ice hockey players saying that never happens by accident and that Petgrave meant to hurt Johnson. Only he'll know. You can see after the collision that he gathers himself, gets up, talks to an opposition player, and then skates away with his hands up to his face once he realises the gravity of the situation. Again, though, only Petgrave will know whether he meant to do anything.
 
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Nethermoor said:
Wow, talk about getting massively defensive over someone else's opinion that differs from yours. I've seen the incident and read many different views all over the world.

1st Opinion: People are saying he should be locked up for murder. That means they believe he intended to kill him which is absolute bollocks.

2nd opinion: Why do you think that? If my mate was killed and I thought someone had done it out of negligence and tried to hurt him I'd be coming out and saying so. Or just saying nothing as opposed to coming out and defending him. As you say they'd have been advised not to say anything, but they have actually jumped to Petgraves defence.

As a Hockey fan you'll know that when players are skating at speed and lose balance and fall forward your skates can go up in the air won't you? Which is what it looked like to me. Like I said this has happened before, although the lad didn't die.

We can revisit this when he's found not guilty in a court of law. Which I'm confident will happen.
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It’s not that you disagree with my point of view, more that you make sweeping statements. In your view, anyone who knows about ice hockey knows it was accidental while people who don’t follow the game all think it was deliberate.

I haven’t seen a single view on here or on Twitter saying he should be done for murder. He’s been arrested for manslaughter. You do know the difference right?
 
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Cellarite said:
Where to start with this load of old shite.

1st opinion: I haven't seen anyone claim that he meant to kill Johnson. Just that he tried to "leave one on him" and it went horribly wrong. I've also read the views of many professional ice hockey plays who say this looks to be the case.
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For point 1. There’s tons of it on social media. Some proper vile views too. The worst being that this was an intentional racist anti white murder!!
 
grunge said:
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For point 1. There’s tons of it on social media. Some proper vile views too. The worst being that this was an intentional racist anti white murder!!
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Fair enough. They’re fuckwits then. Anyone debating this reasonably will be somewhere between complete accident and an attempt at a shithouse act gone terribly wrong. I only posted to challenge the ludicrous statements of whatever his username is that all people who understand ice hockey think one thing and anyone who doesn’t follow the game thinks something else.
 
Cellarite said:
It’s not that you disagree with my point of view, more that you make sweeping statements. In your view, anyone who knows about ice hockey knows it was accidental while people who don’t follow the game all think it was deliberate.

I haven’t seen a single view on here or on Twitter saying he should be done for murder. He’s been arrested for manslaughter. You do know the difference right?
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There have been a few, as has been pointed out to me when I said similar. I would imagine twitter is much worse. Agree with the rest.
 
Cellarite said:
Fair enough. They’re fuckwits then. Anyone debating this reasonably will be somewhere between complete accident and an attempt at a shithouse act gone terribly wrong. I only posted to challenge the ludicrous statements of whatever his username is that all people who understand ice hockey think one thing and anyone who doesn’t follow the game thinks something else.
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Majority of actual Hockey fans and ex players are in agreement it was an accident. Even on here if you read back.

Whatever his username is. Behave. Cellulite
 
Nethermoor said:
Majority of actual Hockey fans and ex players are in agreement it was an accident. Even on here if you read back.

Whatever his username is. Behave. Cellulite
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In fairness, you did say 'all' hockey fans previously. And you did say the other opinion is by 'anyone that knows nothing about the game'.

Both are bollocks, and rightly argued.

It is not at all exclusive to one or the other. Plenty on both sides of that imaginary and arguably irrelevant divide with both sets of opinions.
 
Coatigan said:
In fairness, you did say 'all' hockey fans previously. And you did say the other opinion is by 'anyone that knows nothing about the game'.

Both are bollocks, and rightly argued.

It is not at all exclusive to one or the other. Plenty on both sides of that imaginary and arguably irrelevant divide with both sets of opinions.
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Fine. But I stand by my opinion. It was an accident.
I also have a habit of going way too in on my own opinions aswell. Symptom of ADHD I reckon
 
Cellarite said:
It’s not that you disagree with my point of view, more that you make sweeping statements. In your view, anyone who knows about ice hockey knows it was accidental while people who don’t follow the game all think it was deliberate.

I haven’t seen a single view on here or on Twitter saying he should be done for murder. He’s been arrested for manslaughter. You do know the difference right?
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Please not a legal expert as many on here are..but I suspect he will be prosecuted for involuntary manslaughter, but my understanding is that does not always mean a prison sentence.
As for ice hockey.Was the doc for the Medway Bears Gillingham. Now the team was mostly Canadians, and trust me they were tough..fights all the time, and could never understand why they took their helmets off and started beating each other..split heads stitched up without local,just get me back on the ice doc..a tough sport. Never saw anything like that tackle, and in truth can not remember the rules, but some have pointed out it was wrong.
In truth, I feel there was obviously no mal intent of death, but, equally it was a bad interaction. Trust me one day we will see the same on a footy pitch. Someone hits the back of the knee or groin and a stud severs the popliteal or femoral artery. I suspect the law comes first, and whatever we all think about intent becomes secondary.
 
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