PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

Well yes, but are they actually charging the club with fraud?


:) Happy New Year, btw.
Essentially yes - inaccurate accounts ammount to fraud. Having alleged this the PL now need to find their big boy pants and put up or shut up. My guess is they'll be happy for the limitation period or other technicalities to get us (and the PL) off the hook as it spares their blushes, leaves the smell of shit hanging around us and the PL can tell the red shirt wankers they tried their best.
 
Essentially yes - inaccurate accounts ammount to fraud. Having alleged this the PL now need to find their big boy pants and put up or shut up. My guess is they'll be happy for the limitation period or other technicalities to get us (and the PL) off the hook as it spares their blushes, leaves the smell of shit hanging around us and the PL can tell the red shirt wankers they tried their best.
Exactly this... It's already cost them their grip on the PL, with the government setting up IREF.

If the PL could go back, I bet they wish they never opened this can of worms...
 
Essentially yes - inaccurate accounts ammount to fraud. Having alleged this the PL now need to find their big boy pants and put up or shut up. My guess is they'll be happy for the limitation period or other technicalities to get us (and the PL) off the hook as it spares their blushes, leaves the smell of shit hanging around us and the PL can tell the red shirt wankers they tried their best.

Sorry, I was trying to be funny :)

Accountants like to annoy lawyers. Who doesn't?

But here is a question. If the panel decides some issues are time-barred, can the club waive the limitation in the interest of getting complete closure? Two questions, I suppose. Can they and would they?
 
This is my whole point. I can accuse you of whatever. Proving a crime has been committed is a totally different thing.

If all the PL & UEFA have to go on is a sentence in a stolen email from 2012, they're on flimsy ground.

It's evident to me they're not only pursuing these charges in the faint hope some will stick, but in the full knowledge that the reputational damage to City being called fraudsters who wouldn't have achieved success unless we cheated, will be the next best outcome.

It's working too. My Spuds supporting family already believe they'd have won a PL or two if not for us being FFP cheats. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠⊙⁠_⁠ʖ⁠⊙⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯
I agree with you. A scurrilous and blatant trashing of our reputation . If they dropped the case tomorrow a large amount of the shit they have thrown at us will stick unless they retracted and apologised. Not in my lifetime as someone once said.
 
Let me try.

(Again.)

The relationship between City and the PL is essentially contractual. One of the terms of that contract is that any disputes will be referred to an independent panel for determination. One of the other provisions is that we will provide accurate accounts.

The claim against City is that we have breached this contract. The way in which we are said to have breached it is serious, and is an allegation of criminal conduct. But the forum in which this dispute will be resolved is that provided for in the contract, and the contract is expressly subject to English law.

This has certain consequence.

One is that English law applies to questions of limitation. Note that an allegation of criminality does not change the limitation period, because, to repeat, the dispute between City and the PL is at its heart a claim of breach of contract. So the rules that say serious charges (like murder or fraud) have no limitation period is inapplicable because this is a civil case (albeit one that includes allegations of fraud.) To put the same point another way, the allegation of criminality does not lift this dispute out of the realms of civil claims.

So, as Petrushka has (repeatedly) argued (correctly) the general 6 year limitation period applies, with the proviso that the fraudulent concealment of the breach would mean that the six year period would only begin once the fraud is discovered.

Maybe this particular groundhog can now be laid to rest.
Listen to this fella he knows his stuff.
 
I agree with you. A scurrilous and blatant trashing of our reputation . If they dropped the case tomorrow a large amount of the shit they have thrown at us will stick unless they retracted and apologised. Not in my lifetime as someone once said.
And it will devalue our achievements in the eyes of many opposition fans forever. Guilty or not guilty, it's job done.
 
Currently nobody, apart from the two parties to the case, "knows" exactly to what the charges refer to. As invested fans and some more experienced legal and accounts based professionals have commented, we can have a very good guess though as we have the point source of the investigation, which is the emails, as well as the distinct wording, in some parts, of the charges.

Despite and more likely because of the length of the investigation it would appear that no smoking gun evidence has been "revealed", although this is currently surmised, our position (fans) is that it cannot be found as it doesn't exist.

We also can refer to the charges made by UEFA and the CAS decision and judgement as a source of information as confirmation of the allegations of the alleged financial malfeasance.

It would seem that both the Etihad and Etisalat sponsorship deals are clearly the contractual arrangements the PL are alleging constitute those leading to a breach of the rule below.

1. In respect of each of Seasons 2009/10 to 2017/18 inclusive, the Premier League Rules applicable in those seasons that required provision by a member club to the Premier League, in the utmost good faith, of accurate financial information that gives a true and fair view of the club’s financial position, in particular with respect to its revenue (including sponsorship revenue), its related parties and its operating costs,

We know CAS heard the evidence regarding the Etihad deal from both parties, that evidence is laid out in the judgement. The plaintiffs argument, based solely on the emails, was we disguised sponsorship money as owner investment. That substantial parts of the money to fulfil the contract between City and Etihad was paid by ADUG, our owners company. We refuted that and offered substantial rebuttal evidence to those allegations with testimony under oath by City executives and testimony from Etihad executives. Also separate accountancy audited evidence by a third party. We all know CAS found in our favour and the judgement clearly states that their was insufficient evidence to support the allegations of conspired, sustained fraud between all these parties and that the panel was not satisfied of the truth of the allegations to a comfortable satisfaction.

It would therefore seem the PL want to test the same argument, allege the same conduct, this time breaking their rules of "submission of financial information" in relation to sponsorship revenue, in good faith (ie fraudulent accounts) with exactly the same evidence but in a UK court action on the balance of probability and expect a different outcome.

One could argue that position is reasonable if the original findings were legally perverse or subsequently found to be based on false or incomplete evidence where new cogent evidence has become available. Currently none of the above seems likely. Should we believe the PL position is therefore unreasonable? That of course will be the clubs' fans position.

The Etisalat issues are more complicated in that although evidence from both parties was heard at CAS, the emails versus our rebuttal evidence regarding the 2 x £15 million payments, no ruling by the panel was given, as the matters were deemed time barred by UEFAs own rules, once the panel had decided on the exact date from which to measure the required eligibility. That was neither date offered by UEFA or City but certainly a date which ruled the matters time barred. I think in addition CAS opined that UEFA offered no evidence in the matter despite Citys wealth of counter evidence.

Clearly as the matter has not been ruled on the PL may be seeking to include this as part of their "submission of financial information" in relation to sponsorship revenue breach.

It would seem that if so, they must establish, by submission of such cogent evidence, to allege fraudulent activity by City or its executives to bypass what would clearly be time barred by UK law under the limitations. If I'm correct in that assumption, we as fans are again wondering where is this evidence?

I've also been left wondering the fact that "fraud" is part of a criminal statute yet here it's attempting to be established in a civil case. When offering evidence to establish such "fraud" what burden of proof is required to establish the presence of the alleged "fraud" to negate the time barring issue?

I think it's clear our advocates will seek to have these alleged breaches time barred although it would appear not to be a thoroughly satisfactory outcome from a general publics opinion standpoint, if that were to be the case. Although I think we all know the great unwasheds opinion is already immovably formed thanks to the UK media and its red lackeys.

There are of course several other charges in relation to player and nanager remuneration causing fiduciary breaches but none seemingly as serious as the sponsorship issues in respect of creating false accounts and all of which UEFA were aware of but never challenged as a breach of FFP rules.

The judgement in this case is going to be an epic read. Let's hope like a good Thai massage it has a City happy ending.
Very insightful and thanks but that’s an hell of a post at 5 am on NYE
 
Sorry, I was trying to be funny :)

Accountants like to annoy lawyers. Who doesn't?

But here is a question. If the panel decides some issues are time-barred, can the club waive the limitation in the interest of getting complete closure? Two questions, I suppose. Can they and would they?
No… the lawyers would take the win and tell the club to move on. We will never be viewed as innocent- this is a smear campaign so we just need to be cleared of the charges. The corrupt despots at the PL will unravel themselves in time. The dish of revenge will be served…. Very chilled. Be patient.
 
This is what you originally said:



As others have pointed out to you, City & Etisalat had a valid sponsorship agreement. However a UAE based financier Jaber Mohammed paid £15m in 2012 & 2013 to Manchester City, in respect to the Etisalat sponsorship agreement.

Etisalat used Jaber Mohammed's financial services as a bridging loans to pay City.

Everything was fine until a sentence in a stolen email which alludes to a City employee asking another employee to see if HRH could source third party finance to cover a portion of Etisalat's payments. Enter Jaber Mohammed.

There's no evidence from what I'm aware that this email was acted upon by HRH. Also, it's reasonable to assume because Etisalat repaid the £30m to Jaber Mohammed & these transactions appeared in their accounts, it should be case closed, but no.

UEFA & the PL are STILL wanting to haul us over the coals, not because we've committed a crime, it's because they believe we found a way to traverse our way around their FFP which they introduced to cripple us, & other ambitious clubs like us from the beginning.

I'd be more arsed about your argument, if UEFA & the PL were the honest actors they make themselves out to be. They're not. It's a fight they started, & are seemingly willing to keep on fighting to quench the hatred the G14 & Hateful Eight have for City.

They've zero case in UK Law, & only a case when their private members rules are applied, so Fuck em!
Just for devilment given that this seems to revolve around the source of the funds given to City couldn't a similar argument be made against the dippers with Standard Chartered accused and convicted of money laundering?
 
But here is a question. If the panel decides some issues are time-barred, can the club waive the limitation in the interest of getting complete closure? Two questions, I suppose. Can they and would they?
You are asking if the club would waive the rules which offer them certainly and protection and are agreed between them and the PL from the outset, in order that they can face sanctions in relation to other rules which were also agreed between them and the PL.

It’s akin to agreeing to disapply the handball rule for our opponents in a game in order to prove we are the better team.

I feel that the limitations periods within the contract between City and the PL (and previously with UEFA) are viewed in some quarters (especially in the media) as something that is extraneous to that agreement, whereas they are a central part of it and the rules to which we are subject, as much as any FFP provisions. Anyone saying that limitation is a technicality (or god forbid, ‘a loophole’) fails to appreciate that it is no more a technicality than the FFP rules themselves. It’s like distinguishing between the offside and handball laws and saying one is materially different from the other in terms of its place within the laws of the game. They both involve different considerations, structure and consequences, and one may be more liable to subjective interpretation than the other, but no one seriously suggests that a goal scored by misapplication of either of those laws is somehow more or less meritorious than the other.

Limitation is front and centre of this agreement and sets out the framework for enforcement of its rules. The club need not make any concessions or apologies for this. It’s as much a part of the rules (which City and all other clubs are subjest) as anything else in there.

Anyone pontificating about the application of those rules should be as supportive of upholding any provisions regarding limitation as they are any in relation to FFP.

So no, they wouldn’t, and I don’t think they could, no.
 
You are asking if the club would waive the rules which offer them certainly and protection and are agreed between them and the PL from the outset, in order that they can face sanctions in relation to other rules which were also agreed between them and the PL.

It’s akin to agreeing to disapply the handball rule for our opponents in a game in order to prove we are the better team.

I feel that the limitations periods within the contract between City and the PL (and previously with UEFA) are viewed in some quarters (especially in the media) as something that is extraneous to that agreement, whereas they are a central part of it and the rules to which we are subject, as much as any FFP provisions. Anyone saying that the limitation is a technicality (or god forbid, ‘a loophole’) fails to appreciate that it is no more a technicality than the FFP rules themselves. It’s like distinguishing between the offside and handball laws and saying one is materially different from the other in terms of its place within the laws of the game. They both involve different considerations, structure and consequences, and one may be more liable to subjective interpretation than the other, but no one seriously suggests that a goal scored by misapplication of either of those laws is somehow more or less meritorious than the other.

Limitation is front and centre of this agreement and sets out the framework for enforcement of its rules. The club need not make any concessions or apologies for this. It’s as much a part of the rules (which City and all other clubs are subjest) as anything else in there.

Anyone pontificating about the application of those rules should be as supporting of upholding any provisions in relation to limitation as they are any in relation to FFP.

So no, they wouldn’t, and I don’t think they could, no.

Fair enough. 'Twas just a thought.

Happy New Year to you , as well.
 
This is what you originally said:



As others have pointed out to you, City & Etisalat had a valid sponsorship agreement. However a UAE based financier Jaber Mohammed paid £15m in 2012 & 2013 to Manchester City, in respect to the Etisalat sponsorship agreement.

Etisalat used Jaber Mohammed's financial services as a bridging loans to pay City.

Everything was fine until a sentence in a stolen email which alludes to a City employee asking another employee to see if HRH could source third party finance to cover a portion of Etisalat's payments. Enter Jaber Mohammed.

There's no evidence from what I'm aware that this email was acted upon by HRH. Also, it's reasonable to assume because Etisalat repaid the £30m to Jaber Mohammed & these transactions appeared in their accounts, it should be case closed, but no.

UEFA & the PL are STILL wanting to haul us over the coals, not because we've committed a crime, it's because they believe we found a way to traverse our way around their FFP which they introduced to cripple us, & other ambitious clubs like us from the beginning.

I'd be more arsed about your argument, if UEFA & the PL were the honest actors they make themselves out to be. They're not. It's a fight they started, & are seemingly willing to keep on fighting to quench the hatred the G14 & Hateful Eight have for City.

They've zero case in UK Law, & only a case when their private members rules are applied, so Fuck em!
As I have said before you're trying to disprove the charge against us and that's not the point here it's whether or not the Premier League charge implies accounting fraud which it does. I can't understand your arguments atall as evidence has nothing to do with it and being innocent or guilty of the crime is irrelevant here. Like others with a legal background has said this is an allegation of fraud we're dealing with
 
As I have said before you're trying to disprove the charge against us and that's not the point here it's whether or not the Premier League charge implies accounting fraud which it does. I can't understand your arguments atall as evidence has nothing to do with it and being innocent or guilty of the crime is irrelevant here. Like others with a legal background has said this is an allegation of fraud we're dealing with
And you're not listening to the further dissection. Nobody's arguing that the PL aren't accusing us of fraud. What you're ignoring is City's likely responses based on the evidence we hold & the facts.

Is FFP fraud within the sphere of UEFA & the PL, the same as fraud in UK Law?

If yes, why aren't we being criminally charged?

Is it illegal for Person A to pay a bill for Person B in UK Law?

Is owner investment illegal in UK Law?

These facets make up the basis of UEFA & the PL's FFP breaches against us.

Like I said, it's transparent bullshit. They introduced FFP to stop City. City found legal ways to circumnavigate FFP, & even now after we traversed our way through it, they want to hammer us because they believe one sentence from a stolen email mentions an HRH sourcing a third party bridging loan to pay the Etisalat sponsorship deal.

This is their case & their evidence. Me pointing this out & the pitfalls on BOTH sides, doesn't mean I'm denying the PL are essentially coming after us for accounting fraud. I'm merely highlighting they have zero other evidence for this accusation outside of the stolen email.

On the other side, if Etisalat arranged the third party Jaber Mohammed bridging loan, was interest paid on it? I assume this is also what the PL & UEFA are looking into, but City seem confident, everything's in order.
 
Just for devilment given that this seems to revolve around the source of the funds given to City couldn't a similar argument be made against the dippers with Standard Chartered accused and convicted of money laundering?
Exactly. Now let's see the PL demand to see Standard Chartered's books. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠⊙⁠_⁠ʖ⁠⊙⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯
 
So, as Petrushka has (repeatedly) argued (correctly) the general 6 year limitation period applies, with the proviso that the fraudulent concealment of the breach would mean that the six year period would only begin once the fraud is discovered.

Maybe this particular groundhog can now be laid to rest.

A layman such as myself understands that City’s legal team will be arguing a six year cut off from when the PL formally charged us Jan this year which would be a cut off of Jan 2017 and as I understand it, the PL are charging us with supplying misleading financial information since 2008
But as the original allegations were published by Der Speigel in November 2018, would it be reasonable to expect the ruling on the six year cut off be the end October 2012, so anything before then should be time barred?

I’m recalling that Mancini was sacked at the end of the 12/13 season and City was struggling to meet FFP that year due to the pay off of Mancini and his team
 
And you're not listening to the further dissection. Nobody's arguing that the PL aren't accusing us of fraud. What you're ignoring is City's likely responses based on the evidence we hold & the facts.

Is FFP fraud within the sphere of UEFA & the PL, the same as fraud in UK Law?

If yes, why aren't we being criminally charged?

Is it illegal for Person A to pay a bill for Person B in UK Law?

Is owner investment illegal in UK Law?

These facets make up the basis of UEFA & the PL's FFP breaches against us.

Like I said, it's transparent bullshit. They introduced FFP to stop City. City found legal ways to circumnavigate FFP, & even now after we traversed our way through it, they want to hammer us because they believe one sentence from a stolen email mentions an HRH sourcing a third party bridging loan to pay the Etisalat sponsorship deal.

This is their case & their evidence. Me pointing this out & the pitfalls on BOTH sides, doesn't mean I'm denying the PL are essentially coming after us for accounting fraud. I'm merely highlighting they have zero other evidence for this accusation outside of the stolen email.

On the other side, if Etisalat arranged the third party Jaber Mohammed bridging loan, was interest paid on it? I assume this is also what the PL & UEFA are looking into, but City seem confident, everything's in order.
Here you go

Is FFP fraud within the sphere of UEFA & the PL, the same as fraud in UK Law? Nothing to do with FFP it is accounting fraud That trumps everything here.

If yes, why aren't we being criminally charged? Because it's unwinnable given all of our evidence which says a lot About the Premier Leagues case.

Is it illegal for Person A to pay a bill for Person B in UK Law? If Person B is actually Person A but recorded it as Person B then yes it is

Is owner investment illegal in UK Law?
No but it has to recorded as equity funding not revenue otherwise it will be accounting fraud

All of the above is the reason the Premier League accusing City of accounting fraud
 
Here you go

1. Is FFP fraud within the sphere of UEFA & the PL, the same as fraud in UK Law? Nothing to do with FFP it is accounting fraud That trumps everything here.

2. If yes, why aren't we being criminally charged? Because it's unwinnable given all of our evidence which says a lot About the Premier Leagues case.

3. Is it illegal for Person A to pay a bill for Person B in UK Law? If Person B is actually Person A but recorded it as Person B then yes it is

4. Is owner investment illegal in UK Law?
No but it has to recorded as equity funding not revenue otherwise it will be accounting fraud

All of the above is the reason the Premier League accusing City of accounting fraud
1. So why haven't the UK authorities been called in to investigate us for fraud?

2. This is the point everyone's making! When you cut to the chase, this is the logical conclusion you arrive at.

3. Years ago I made a Directors loan which is perfectly legal within business.

A: If my son started a business & needed to use my companies services, & I personally paid his invoice, is that illegal?

4. I refer you to answer 3 above.

All of the above are the reasons City sound confident of beating the PL's accounting fraud charges.
 

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