Mr Bates vs the Post Office

metalblue said:
Playing devils advocate maybe before horizon there was no reconciliation of takings etc in the way the Horizon (supposedly) provided. Management might look at it take the view it had uncovered the dishonesty that was previously there, particularly if they didn’t have any reliable data before to guess at numbers.

What I found weird was how some were affected and not others. I’m guessing, from the ITV drama, they suggest it might have been down to intermittent connectivity issues. Nonetheless assuming the ITV drama is a fairly accurate characterisation of what happened that the IT support folks were correcting lots of issues should have sent alarm bells ringing. Feels like nobody in management wanted to admit issues to anyone else in management.
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The Horizon system had loads of problems when it went live but this was brushed under the carpet.
So many of the problems were associated with a Terminal 2 - aluded to in the series. Bizare as most Sub-Posrmasters only have 1 terminal. The consensus is Terminal 2 was the basement office in Bracknell trying to correct problems resulting from Horizon bugs.
 
metalblue said:
Playing devils advocate maybe before horizon there was no reconciliation of takings etc in the way the Horizon (supposedly) provided. Management might look at it take the view it had uncovered the dishonesty that was previously there, particularly if they didn’t have any reliable data before to guess at numbers.

What I found weird was how some were affected and not others. I’m guessing, from the ITV drama, they suggest it might have been down to intermittent connectivity issues. Nonetheless assuming the ITV drama is a fairly accurate characterisation of what happened that the IT support folks were correcting lots of issues should have sent alarm bells ringing. Feels like nobody in management wanted to admit issues to anyone else in management.
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Think all were affected to a greater or lesser degree, we had a number of unexplained shortages and as per contract made good and moved on. Over the time we owned the po probably put in around £4k which offset against the wages wasn't a great loss. Some of the 700 are talking cumulative losses of less than that. I suppose a lot depends on the profitability of the office and ability to pay and walk away. Nb at first chance took the gov. Money to close office.
 
Just watched it. Makes my blood boil watching this injustice. I hope the revelations lead to a swift conclusion and those poor sods get proper compensation. That absolute twat at the Post office should have their honours stripped as well.
 
I stayed out of this thread as I was playing catch up and didn't want spoilers.
What a fucking disgrace. This started in 2009. 15 years ago. It is still going on and yet the Post Office are still allowed to do their own investigations and prosecution’s despite it being clear they are corrupt and bullies. A very upsetting series.
 
Just watched Ep 1.
Shocked and dismayed that this could happen in the UK. Fele so sorry for those people.
The Government should hang their heads in shame for not taking over this and sorting it (no pun intended).

Grenfell also.
Just goes to show that ordinary people mean about as much to them as cockroaches.
 
Bill Walker said:
Just watched Ep 1.
Shocked and dismayed that this could happen in the UK. Fele so sorry for those people.
The Government should hang their heads in shame for not taking over this and sorting it (no pun intended).

Grenfell also.
Just goes to show that ordinary people mean about as much to them as cockroaches.
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@Bill Walker no spoilers if you've only seen episode one but why would the government take it over ? They are the Post Office. If the P.O. have to pay out compensation they are simply paying out govt. money so its in the interests of the government to delay and refuse compensation.
If this sickens you look up the contaminated blood scandal. At the start of the Aids problem, 1980's, people with HIV gave blood. This was then used in normal transfusions and many died. The government still haven't settled compensation claims.
 
Blue Mist said:
@Bill Walker no spoilers if you've only seen episode one but why would the government take it over ? They are the Post Office. If the P.O. have to pay out compensation they are simply paying out govt. money so its in the interests of the government to delay and refuse compensation.
If this sickens you look up the contaminated blood scandal. At the start of the Aids problem, 1980's, people with HIV gave blood. This was then used in normal transfusions and many died. The government still haven't settled compensation claims.
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The Civil Service/Big Buisness blob that actually rules us protects its own. The little people are irrelevant and thorns in their side.
Yes Minister actually Haa it spot on as to what "Government" ministers can do in the face of it's control.
 
What is also worrying is that the Post Office and HM Customs and Excise can still do their own investigations and prosecution’s. This should be stopped now.
One reason so many innocents went to prison is they were 'threatened' with 2 years jail if they pleaded not guilty but were found guilty. Out of fear they had no choice but to go guilty for a reduced sentence.
Further they were threatened with having to pay prosecution costs of many hundreds of thousands. It was/is a national disgrace and rightly called the biggest miscarriage of justice ever.
 
Blue Mist said:
What is also worrying is that the Post Office and HM Customs and Excise can still do their own investigations and prosecution’s. This should be stopped now.
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Knew customs and excise were allowed but never realised the post office could until this programme, I’m assuming they are governed by P.A.C.E etc, but do they also have a more independent go between like the CPS ?
 
Dirty Harry said:
Knew customs and excise were allowed but never realised the post office could until this programme, I’m assuming they are governed by P.A.C.E etc, but do they also have a more independent go between like the CPS ?
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There is no go between. They have their own investigators and solicitors. They then appoint Barristers who they have worked with before.
They only use certain parts of Pace, not all of it, i.e. the bits that benefit them. Their is no police or CPS involvement at all.
To search your house the police have to get a search warrant from a magistrate. Did you know that Customs simply go to their boss and get a 'Writ of Assistance' ?
These powers They both have go back hundreds of years and have never been modified.
 
Just another quick one. To open a parcel or letter the police/customs need a search warrant.
The Post Office are the only ones allowed to simply open it. Guess who have an office at the main sorting office (overseas parcels) in Coventry ?

If you said HM Customs and Excise you'd be right.
 
Blue Mist said:
What is also worrying is that the Post Office and HM Customs and Excise can still do their own investigations and prosecution’s. This should be stopped now.
One reason so many innocents went to prison is they were 'threatened' with 2 years jail if they pleaded not guilty but were found guilty. Out of fear they had no choice but to go guilty for a reduced sentence.
Further they were threatened with having to pay prosecution costs of many hundreds of thousands. It was/is a national disgrace and rightly called the biggest miscarriage of justice ever.
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Yep. It is scandalous that any QUANGO can lead it's own prosecutions. Always has been.
 
yerwot? said:
The owners and heads of mass media are complicit in so many cover-ups, through lack of coverage, out-right lies, smear campaigns, phone-hacking etc. Agenda-driven headlines, coupled with a disenfranchised electorate of an archaic fptp, (much-loved by the mp gravy train cabal) is why democracy is dead. This PO scandal is just the latest in a long line of travesties of justice, but wont be the last, history makes that all too obvious. The contaminated blood victims, the care-home deaths, the carriage-door failures that killed and injured more than Hillsborough , the Bradford fire white-wash, (the ninth business to go up in flames owned by one man) NO-ONE TO BLAME....FFS. Westminster, the mother of all Parliaments, mother of all Cover-ups more like
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Given that i knew all about this scandal years ago, i find it strange that a tv drama has suddenly got the 'suits', PM, and the police interested when all the information was there for all to read.
 
About 12 years too late the Government has seen the problem and is attempting to sort it out:
news.sky.com

Mr Bates vs The Post Office: Sunak condemns 'appalling miscarriage of justice' of Horizon scandal

Pressure is also mounting on Liberal Democrat leader Sir Ed Davey, who was postal affairs minister when issues started to emerge. The Sunday Times says Alan Bates wrote to Sir Ed 12 years ago - and had warned the accounting scandal could leave taxpayers exposed to "astronomical" costs.
news.sky.com news.sky.com

Won't have much sucess as the Gov Blob protects it's own as long as it can. They eventually get dropped when continued support would threaten the Blob's control or expose tgeir control to the public.
Typically, this happens when both the main parties get behind a measure.
Incidently poor Ed Davy (Leader of the Lib Dems) is in trouble as he was post office minister and rubber stamped what the Post Office told him.
 
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stonerblue said:
Given that i knew all about this scandal years ago, i find it strange that a tv drama has suddenly got the 'suits', PM, and the police interested when all the information was there for all to read.
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The Blob protects it's own.
They only act when the Blob itself is threatened or their actual control of the levers of power is exposed.
 
Blue Mist said:
There is no go between. They have their own investigators and solicitors. They then appoint Barristers who they have worked with before.
They only use certain parts of Pace, not all of it, i.e. the bits that benefit them. Their is no police or CPS involvement at all.
To search your house the police have to get a search warrant from a magistrate. Did you know that Customs simply go to their boss and get a 'Writ of Assistance' ?
These powers They both have go back hundreds of years and have never been modified.
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Cheers bud, knew about ‘Customs and Excise’ but not the PO’s powers.

The bit I’ve highlighted is one thing that needs to change here, sooner rather than later, the CPS’s enhanced involvment and say in prosecutions made our justice system far better imo.
 
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