Mr Bates vs the Post Office

[blueste41]

The one thing that surprised me about the programme, that doesn’t seem to have been discussed much, is that the Post Office have the power to completely bypass the police and take people to court themselves.

Not saying I’ve 100% confidence in the police but their involvement is normally a pretty important step between someone accusing someone else of criminality and that person ending up in jail.

Actually in the enquiry quite a lot has been made of that, a lot of today's evidence has highlighted that being investigator, CPS and prosecutor creates blurred lines and lacks credibility.
Interesting that this was City's view of UEFA which is why they maintained we would be found to be innocent when looked at by an "independent" body (CAS).

 

[mackenzie]

There was someone on Sky earlier, who has been involved in this recent investigation, who said it was incredible that no "stolen" money was ever traced in any of the original convictions, yet that was never noticed/flagged. Not in bank accounts or luxury goods bought by any of the individuals concerned.
Unbelievable that someone didn't join the dots!

 

[ArdwickAlbert]

Just watching the enquiry. Trying to put my prejudices to one side this scouser doesn’t sound credible at all. I’ve seen people like this so many times before. Made a career by dogma and inertia and get to a level way above their competence. An really imagine him relying on authority rather than investigation and not having the intelligence or professional ability to follow patterns and logic.

 

[Ashton Moss Messi]

I've followed this scandal since 2003 when I heard about a conviction of a postmaster for theft, the sub postmaster talked about system issues but the article only mentioned this in passing and was generally of the opinion the postmaster was guilty, but it sparked a memory and subsequently lead me to wonder if his assertion was correct:-


In 1997 I worked for a large retailer and was on a team tasked with procuring a new EPOS system. One of the systems we were asked to evaluate was called Pathway. It was a bag of shit! The screen (badly calibrated) would often seemingly freeze but when it recovered you discovered it had accepted every key press. The system would kick you out of sub menu's/applications and often needed re-booting. In an attempt to instil some confidence the ICL rep (later they became Fujitsu) told us that the system we were looking at had been selected as a prototype and was currently being developed into a system for Post Offices, I remember thinking "god help them".

Needless to say I didn't necessarily go along with the 2003 article that the Postmaster was a thief!

Not sure I foresaw where we are today though!

Pathway...
The company set up to provide the new PO system was "ICL Pathway".
ICL bought by Fujitsu.
ICL Pathway changed name to Fujitsu Services Pathway end of March 2002.

One can only summise that the bag of shit known as Pathway was indeed the prototype foundation of the bag of shit known as Horizon.

 

[bluethrunthru]

surprise surprise

 

[MCFC Wirral]

We’ve all surely worked places with incompetent managers, popular yet useless colleagues and systems that don’t work?

There’s always been nepotism, jobs for the boys, cliques, grassing etc. HR often seem just there to protect management.

 

[RiversideBlue]

Just watching the enquiry. Trying to put my prejudices to one side this scouser doesn’t sound credible at all. I’ve seen people like this so many times before. Made a career by dogma and inertia and get to a level way above their competence. An really imagine him relying on authority rather than investigation and not having the intelligence or professional ability to follow patterns and logic.

The bit where they said why did you write this sentence in capital letters and he said that's how I write....and you could see all the other sentences had words split with a mix of upper and lower case letters. How can someone who can't write properly be allowed to lead these investigations?

 

[mosssideblue]

Having someone like him in his position is not a good look for the PO.

Clearly not suitable for his role

 

[blueste41]

Just watching the enquiry. Trying to put my prejudices to one side this scouser doesn’t sound credible at all. I’ve seen people like this so many times before. Made a career by dogma and inertia and get to a level way above their competence. An really imagine him relying on authority rather than investigation and not having the intelligence or professional ability to follow patterns and logic.

I've watched all of the enquiry, none of them are credible. I have also concluded that there was something in the water at POL head office that caused amnesia because the most common answer to questions is "I don't recall"! It's also intriguing the amount of people that told the enquiry they left the post office in 2016, intriguing because that is when the "555" launched their common issues writ to the post office which they had substantial financial backing for. All of a sudden post office lifers in their late 50's early 60's all decided it was time for a career change!

 

[kaz7]

75k is a fucking insult and most of the public would seem to agree , shocking bad offer

 

[blueste41]

For those that don't know Gareth Jenkins was the IT architect for Fujitsu, he is most certainly going to prison.

 

[Ashton Moss Messi]

15:38
Lawyer now providing evidence in the form of a complaint of how Bradshaw bullied a suspect.

Hasn't said "we know where you live" as he was already in his house.
Threatened the guy with the police if he didn't cooperate.
Shouted to get him to admit he'd done it and sign the paperwork.
Searched his house and found nothing.

Bradshaw describing it as a voluntary search, he was professional and comments taken out of context.

Next step could have been to call for his mate Stanley.
45 years working in the PO - nice pension waiting for him.

 

[marco]

i cant recall
maybe once or twice
nothing to do with me
its all above me

 

[Ashton Moss Messi]

For those that don't know Gareth Jenkins was the IT architect for Fujitsu, he is most certainly going to prison.

Don't be surprised if there's a raft of Fujitsu documents signed by PO to confirm that the system has been fully tested, all the requirements have been delivered and the Fujitsu call centre process was acceptable for providing support.

Senior PO people will no doubt claim they relied on the IT experts to tell them all was good.

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

The one thing that surprised me about the programme, that doesn’t seem to have been discussed much, is that the Post Office have the power to completely bypass the police and take people to court themselves.

Not saying I’ve 100% confidence in the police but their involvement is normally a pretty important step between someone accusing someone else of criminality and that person ending up in jail.

Like I said the RM had archaic laws that allow that. They kept them since becoming no longer "Royal"

I see it like Amazon having the authority to imprison their staff. Crazy.

 

[Blue Maverick]

What is an expert, SB “someone who knows more than an ordinary person”, do you know more about Horizon than than them? Yes but I’m not an expert, fuck me, the guys a twat.

 

[kaz7]

I knew about this scandal a long time ago as i watch this morning every day , it wasnt picked up by the authorities and not because the story wasnt told

 

[blueste41]

Don't be surprised if there's a raft of Fujitsu documents signed by PO to confirm that the system has been fully tested, all the requirements have been delivered and the Fujitsu call centre process was acceptable for providing support.

Senior PO people will no doubt claim they relied on the IT experts to tell them all was good.

That argument has already been blown out of the water. Below is an extract of what became known as "the Clarke advice" (from 2013) it acknowledges that Jenkins knew Horizon contained bugs, errors and defects sufficient enough to cause the discrepancies and acknowledged it meant he had perjured himself in court when he said Horizon was "robust", via e -mail chains it has been proven to have been seen by van den Bogerd and Vennels. It is the sole reason the prosecutions stopped because they could not find another expert witness that would testify in court Horizon was fit for purpose.

 

[mosssideblue]

75k is a fucking insult and most of the public would seem to agree , shocking bad offer

Hopefully, they are told to shove it and come back when you are serious

 

[kaz7]

Hopefully, they are told to shove it and come back when you are serious

I hope so too , the tories are saying we will exonerate you but you must accept a paltry sum in return , lets see if they go ahead and exonerate them if they say we want more than 75k, then we will see sunaks true colours