Middle East Conflict

Palerider said:
Why would I lie?

I don't know any Palestinians and never been there.
I don't know any Israelis and never been there.

I think the diplomats of the UK and the USA have called it perfectly. Israel was attacked. In the certainty that the Palestinians were never able or minded to hand over the perpetrators of that attack then every right minded person agreed that the Israelis were entitled to do do something about Hamas themselves. Hamas had 'apparently' (but it does look to be true) spent the Palestinians money on building tunnels and hideouts many in hospitals, schools etc. The Israelis were warned that fighting a "Stalingrad" type war would cost thousands of lives on both sides. The reality is that thousands of Palestinian lives have been lost but nowhere near that many Israeli lives (which pisses off the Palestinian supporters no end). We have now reached the stage where the Israelis have effectively 'won' and the UK and USA diplomats are calling on Israel to stop. I agree with the UK and USA diplomats, it's effectively over, stop.

Israel is a democratic country and it's government and attitude to a two state solution will change all the time. There is plenty of unbiased reading on the internet indicating that Israel is open to a two state solution.

My stated beliefs seem to be in line with most fair minded Israelis and Palestinians. Negotiate a two state solution and fucking stick to it. It is not in line with hard line one state Israelis or Palestinians.

Have I gone over the top with some of my comments? Almost certainly, sometimes I post in temper. You started a response to me the other day with something like 'it's not a shit show, it's fucking genocide'. That is also over the top.

In conclusion, my a) and b) options are my heartfelt beliefs and always have been.

Oh, and on a personal level, just to clear up our deleted conversation last week. I was calling out your comment not you personally. I categorically do NOT think you are the word we cannot speak but that does not mean that you (or I) do not occasionally, overstep the mark (in my view!).
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What is this unbiased internet source saying Israel is open to a two-state solution?

"Shalom for settlers"?
 
Palerider said:
Why would I lie?

I don't know any Palestinians and never been there.
I don't know any Israelis and never been there.

I think the diplomats of the UK and the USA have called it perfectly. Israel was attacked. In the certainty that the Palestinians were never able or minded to hand over the perpetrators of that attack then every right minded person agreed that the Israelis were entitled to do do something about Hamas themselves. Hamas had 'apparently' (but it does look to be true) spent the Palestinians money on building tunnels and hideouts many in hospitals, schools etc. The Israelis were warned that fighting a "Stalingrad" type war would cost thousands of lives on both sides. The reality is that thousands of Palestinian lives have been lost but nowhere near that many Israeli lives (which pisses off the Palestinian supporters no end). We have now reached the stage where the Israelis have effectively 'won' and the UK and USA diplomats are calling on Israel to stop. I agree with the UK and USA diplomats, it's effectively over, stop.

Israel is a democratic country and it's government and attitude to a two state solution will change all the time. There is plenty of unbiased reading on the internet indicating that Israel is open to a two state solution.

My stated beliefs seem to be in line with most fair minded Israelis and Palestinians. Negotiate a two state solution and fucking stick to it. It is not in line with hard line one state Israelis or Palestinians.

Have I gone over the top with some of my comments? Almost certainly, sometimes I post in temper. You started a response to me the other day with something like 'it's not a shit show, it's fucking genocide'. That is also over the top.

In conclusion, my a) and b) options are my heartfelt beliefs and always have been.

Oh, and on a personal level, just to clear up our deleted conversation last week. I was calling out your comment not you personally. I categorically do NOT think you are the word we cannot speak but that does not mean that you (or I) do not occasionally, overstep the mark (in my view!).
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Israel is nothing like a democracy, the first requirement of which is that the rule of law is one of consent and the gov applies it equally to all without fear or favour. Israel fails at the first hurdle.
 
Palerider said:
But surely Netanyahu will not be Prime Minister forever? That's how democracy work's. Are you conflating Netanyahu's views with those of all Israelis?

Do you blame all Russians for Putin?
All Americans for Trump?
All Germans for Hitler?
All Israelis for Netanyahu?
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You really can’t help these dishonest arguments can you?

I wrote a comment about how Netenyahu, his cabinet AND THE ENTIRE ISRAELI PARLIAMENT voted to never recognise Palestine and you come back with some shit straw man attack about me equating all Israelis with Netenyahu.


Yeah, I credit Israelis with electing people who represent their views - “that’s how democracy works” after all! - and the people they elected to the Knesset voted recognise a Palestinian state.

Now if you’re going to continue on this one man genocide defence campaign, can you at least do a better job?
 
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The Future’s Blue! said:
How is it that whenever they are questioned, they always resort to closing the debate down with that shit?
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Because it works most of the time. If it doesn’t discredit the person you attack, it derails the debate so you spend days arguing about how something that clearly isn’t antisemitic isn’t antisemitic.

Ben gvir knows no one sensible is going to believe it but the people he’s speaking to aren’t sensible, they’re people like the illegal settlers he was handing free AR15s out to a few months back.
 
Don't think the PA are going to shaking off the tag of collaborators any time.

Naturally they are the Wests idea of suitable leaders for a non Hamas Gaza ..... if there is anything left to govern that is.


 
domalino said:
You really can’t help these dishonest arguments can you?

I wrote a comment about how Netenyahu, his cabinet AND THE ENTIRE ISRAELI PARLIAMENT voted to never recognise Palestine and you come back with some shit straw man attack about me equating all Israelis with Netenyahu.


Yeah, I credit Israelis with electing people who represent their views - “that’s how democracy works” after all! - and the people they elected to the Knesset voted recognise a Palestinian state.

Now if you’re going to continue on this one man genocide defence campaign, can you at least do a better job?
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I assume you mean voted not to recognise a Palestinian state

As for Palerider, I don't think it's dishonesty. It's sheer ignorance, which he admits.
 
domalino said:
You really can’t help these dishonest arguments can you?

I wrote a comment about how Netenyahu, his cabinet AND THE ENTIRE ISRAELI PARLIAMENT voted to never recognise Palestine and you come back with some shit straw man attack about me equating all Israelis with Netenyahu.


Yeah, I credit Israelis with electing people who represent their views - “that’s how democracy works” after all! - and the people they elected to the Knesset voted recognise a Palestinian state.

Now if you’re going to continue on this one man genocide defence campaign, can you at least do a better job?
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Vic said:
I assume you mean voted not to recognise a Palestinian state

As for Palerider, I don't think it's dishonesty. It's sheer ignorance, which he admits.
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As I have said before, I think you would be best served just ignoring him. He wants the engagement, presumably to help derail the thread with refutation of his nonsensical assertions, so just don’t give him what he is looking for.

There have been plenty of other posters that presented defences of Israel’s various actions since the new war began from a good faith position, and so were deserving of earnest engagement, but he is not among them.
 
bluethrunthru said:
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Before this gains traction...

Is there actually a "mosque" there?

Stamford Hill is, well, rather a Jewish area.

When was this?

And given what the other kids in the picture are wearing, is this fancy dress?

Unwise, and possibly dangerous when police shoot people holding things that might be mistaken for a gun.

But maybe not as provocative as suggested?
 
west didsblue said:
I think it’s more likely that the child was in fancy dress for Purim and on his way to a party.
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First, that is an exceptionally generous presumption.

Second, even if that is the case, the child should have been prevented from walking by the mosque dressed as he was. That was intentional, either way. Perhaps it was poor judgement from the child, which is obviously quite common, but the parents should have known better, hence why they would be held accountable.
 
Vic said:
Before this gains traction...

Is there actually a "mosque" there?

Stamford Hill is, well, rather a Jewish area.

When was this?

And given what the other kids in the picture are wearing, is this fancy dress?

Unwise, and possibly dangerous when police shoot people holding things that might be mistaken for a gun.

But maybe not as provocative as suggested?
Click to expand...
Masjid Uthman Mosque
152 Olinda Rd, London N16 6TP, United Kingdom
masjidbox.com

Prayer times of Masjid Uthman - Masjidbox

Find on this page the exact prayer times of By Masjidbox The Islamic Digital Signage
masjidbox.com masjidbox.com

Check the street view via google maps and you’ll see the picture was taken from in front of the mosque looking across the street.

Now, could the photo be older? Possibly. But, even so, it is highly problematic on many levels. Could be for Purim, could be for something else entirely. But objectionable, regardless.
 
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