PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

Yep if anyone expects social media to be any different it won't individuals nobody's Bots on X with no followers around the world will still be spouting this shit!

It’s not only about the bots. I listen and consume a lot of podcasts including the Athletic and whenever City are mentioned - a deliberate attempt is made to mention our charges, something in the lines of “ Will Halland play next season to the 115 charges City” or “City may win the league or else that can add a few more charges and spend another billion next season.”

These things do grate me and reduces the pleasure of listening to any media or watch any tv or video. Look at Jamie Caragghar while predicting who will win the CL predicts it would be “115 charges Manchester City”
 
Jesus. If they asked for that, the club should have stopped cooperating right away.
as with most information, you have to justify why you require that information and there better be a damn good reason why you need it before it gets supplied, the pl dont seem to understand this basic tenet of business.
 
Have none of the other, what is it 4 now, clubs that have been given points deductions been charged with non-cooperation? Is it just us that have been uncooperative?

I don't however see how if it sticks, that charge can carry a sporting penalty. Do you get a sporting advantage by a lack of cooperation?
If you admit it, you have cooperated.

It's the ducking stool approach of the witch surviving, until burned at the stake.
 
City refused to answer PL’s questions on future plans, I believe.
Rather than risk possible sanctions for non cooperation by refusing to answer, why didn't we just say we currently had no definite plans. Any plans we have, that are revealed when it suits us, are explained by saying they were conceived after we were asked.
 
I do not agree Seems the Fordham scheme was more like Barcelona pulling leavers. Us selling image rights for an up front fee large lump sum to lower losses (more tax) in exchange for lower income in future periods when we had lower Losses anyway and less need for the income
You're on the right lines I believe. Fordham was about bringing revenue in via an up-front lump sum, rather than tax avoidance, and my view is that was done to try to help us avoid sanction under FFP.

Although we knew we were going to fail, the Annex XI provision about pre-2010 wages gave us a get-out if we could show that these wages were the sole reason for our losses. Knowing what those allowable wages were, we knew what the maximum allowable loss was, and the Fordham payment was (in my view) a device to help us achieve that.

Of course, as we now know, UEFA made a change to the method of calculation about those wages and how they could be applied, which made us fall just outside the maximum allowable loss. I suspect that we probably wouldn't have bothered with the Fordham arrangement had we known the way it would play out but it was too late once we did know.

Image rights are certainly a device to minimise tax payments, by paying a player's company for the use of their image. The tax burden then falls on the player's company, rather than the club. If the club pays a player £100k a week, with no image rights, the club will pay tax & NI on that full £100k. By paying £90k in salary and £10k in images rights, the club reduces its tax & NI liability by £10k. HMRC's rule of thumb is that, under normal circumstances, 10% of a player's remuneration is acceptable. I suspect the disputes with the likes of united and Newcastle are over the amounts paid, and therefore their tax liability.
 
Speculation only: I still don’t really understand why we gave them nothing beyond 2018; perhaps for this reason?

I think it's more likely they didn't ask for information post 2018. God knows why, though .....

On the other hand, if I was really trying to understand anything the PL was doing, I would be going crazy.
 
Unless I'm misunderstanding surely it's because the investigation started then?
That's the allegation of non-cooperation, yes, but they haven't included any other allegations after 2018 which means either i) all the club's alleged naughty business had finished by then (which doesn't make much sense) or ii) they didn't look at records after 2018 (which doesn't make much sense either tbh).

Still, I gave up trying to make sense of what the PL does last February.
 
PL BOARD MEETING MINUTES. Wednesday 10 April 2024.
CHAIR: “What the fuck are we doing?”
CEO: “No bloody idea.”
DIRECTOR 1: “Me neither”
DIRECTOR 2: “Nope”
CHAIR: “Anybody?”
ALL: Silence
CHAIR: “The resolution is that we have no fucking idea what we are doing. All those in favour say ‘Aye’”
ALL: “Aye”
CHAIR: “Carried”
 
That's the allegation of non-cooperation, yes, but they haven't included any other allegations after 2018 which means either i) all the club's alleged naughty business had finished by then (which doesn't make much sense) or ii) they didn't look at records after 2018 (which doesn't make much sense either tbh).

Still, I gave up trying to make sense of what the PL does last February.
I thought ii) was obvious but that may just be me ;)

They'd have been having to amend the charges year on year otherwise which is why I do have a slight concern on what happens with 2018 onwards if we are found guilty of anything besides non-cooperation.
 
PL BOARD MEETING MINUTES. Wednesday 10 April 2024.
CHAIR: “What the fuck are we doing?”
CEO: “No bloody idea.”
DIRECTOR 1: “Me neither”
DIRECTOR 2: “Nope”
CHAIR: “Anybody?”
ALL: Silence
CHAIR: “The resolution is that we have no fucking idea what we are doing. All those in favour say ‘Aye’”
ALL: “Aye”
CHAIR: “Carried”
All: whatabout city?
 
Speculation only: I still don’t really understand why we gave them nothing beyond 2018; perhaps for this reason?

I assume because the investigation was for the der spiegel allegations. It opened when uefa opened theirs, and once cas concluded it, there was no logic in the PL just carrying on investigating every year thereafter indefinitely.

It was a fair stance imo. They will argue that's failure to cooperate, but the club would probably argue the need to cooperate beyond what was being investigated, without a definitive end in sight.
 
You're on the right lines I believe. Fordham was about bringing revenue in via an up-front lump sum, rather than tax avoidance, and my view is that was done to try to help us avoid sanction under FFP.

Although we knew we were going to fail, the Annex XI provision about pre-2010 wages gave us a get-out if we could show that these wages were the sole reason for our losses. Knowing what those allowable wages were, we knew what the maximum allowable loss was, and the Fordham payment was (in my view) a device to help us achieve that.

Of course, as we now know, UEFA made a change to the method of calculation about those wages and how they could be applied, which made us fall just outside the maximum allowable loss. I suspect that we probably wouldn't have bothered with the Fordham arrangement had we known the way it would play out but it was too late once we did know.

Image rights are certainly a device to minimise tax payments, by paying a player's company for the use of their image. The tax burden then falls on the player's company, rather than the club. If the club pays a player £100k a week, with no image rights, the club will pay tax & NI on that full £100k. By paying £90k in salary and £10k in images rights, the club reduces its tax & NI liability by £10k. HMRC's rule of thumb is that, under normal circumstances, 10% of a player's remuneration is acceptable. I suspect the disputes with the likes of united and Newcastle are over the amounts paid, and therefore their tax liability.
I have never really understood the change that was made it never made any sense to me can you please explain
 
I think it's more likely they didn't ask for information post 2018. God knows why, though .....

On the other hand, if I was really trying to understand anything the PL was doing, I would be going crazy.

If they didn't, how can they then charge for non-cooperation after 2018?

Unless I'm misunderstanding surely it's because the investigation started then?

As above, then there can be no 5th (group) charge, really. They must have asked and not bren given, for that to have any chance of sticking.

I thought ii) was obvious but that may just be me ;)

They'd have been having to amend the charges year on year otherwise which is why I do have a slight concern on what happens with 2018 onwards if we are found guilty of anything besides non-cooperation.

Surely if we are found guilty of non-cooperation beyond 2018, that in itself also opens up the prospect of further investigation into the period after that. It is a mess either way.
 
I thought ii) was obvious but that may just be me ;)

They'd have been having to amend the charges year on year otherwise which is why I do have a slight concern on what happens with 2018 onwards if we are found guilty of anything besides non-cooperation.

They could have investigated all periods until the allegations were referred to the disciplinary panel.

When I was involved with these things, we always looked at everything to do with the matter being investigated as close to the report date as possible. For two reasons: first, stopping and starting investigations is time consuming and administratively difficult. Once you are "in the door", you don't want to leave before you have to; secondly, you may find something in the last year, month or week that either brings to light some malfeasance or provides some additional evidence of the suspected malpractice.

All imho, of course.
 
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If they didn't, how can they then charge for non-cooperation after 2018?

The investigation started in 2018 and finished in 2023. They are saying the club didn't fully comply at any stage of the investigation (there was no investigation before 2018 not to have complied with ....)

As above, then there can be no 5th (group) charge, really. They must have asked and not bren given, for that to have any chance of sticking.

The PL can believe that they had a right under the rules to some information that wasn't provided (ie non-cooperation) at the same time as the club thinks it has provided all the information that it is required to by the rules (ie fully complied).

Surely if we are found guilty of non-cooperation beyond 2018, that in itself also opens up the prospect of further investigation into the period after that. It is a mess either way.

We can agree it's a mess, and yes, if any of the pre-2018 allegations are proven, they could look at the additional years through to the current year whether the non-cooperation allegation sticks or not.

All imho.
 
The investigation started in 2018 and finished in 2023. They are saying the club didn't fully comply at any stage of the investigation (there was no investigation before 2018 not to have complied with ....)



The PL can believe that they had a right under the rules to some information that wasn't provided (ie non-cooperation) at the same time as the club thinks it has provided all the information that it is required to by the rules (ie fully complied).



We can agree it's a mess, and yes, if any of the pre-2018 allegations are proven, they could look at the additional years through to the current year whether the non-cooperation allegation sticks or not.

All imho.

That makes sense. The non cooperation charge is for the whole period of the investigation. But from what has been written so far, that view seems based on the club not providing accounts beyond 2018. They would argue they cooperated fully with accounts up to that point, the PL will argue they didn't, because they didn't provide all accounts asked for. That at least seems to be one theory, could be to do with the extent as much as the time period, and as you keep saying, third party information.
 

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