PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

halfcenturyup said:
Can only find this.

View attachment 121015

None of the supporting information they posted on Brahim referred to Toure at all.

Edit: And it seems to me it would be quite stupid of Soriano, Khaldoon and Pearce to be openly referring to off the books payments in the club's general email correspondence. First rule of doing naughty stuff. Don't document it where people can find it. Trust me.

I don't know about Soriano, but Khaldoon and Pearce aren't stupid.

Edit 2: That presumably clears up the date of the allegations as 2010/11 to 2015/6. Maybe it's nothing to do with Fordham. Who knows? :)
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You really have to be careful with this stuff, as was clear from the start of the Der Spiegel 'revelations'. They'd cherry-pick isolated emails to "prove" we'd done something wrong without any context. Etisalat was a case in point, where ADUG clearly funded the original sponsorship (which was prior to FFP) but later claimed it back off them. CAS showed that the accounting entries clearly showed a liability and that ADUG was the creditor. It's possible this was the case with Seluk, or that there was some other perfectly legitimate reason why we did it. We were spending money like crazy at that time so must have paid loads to other agents. Why would we pay another via ADUG.

But even if we assume the worst, a one-off £4m 'saved' gives us no financial advantage whatsoever, like the £1.75m a year to Mancini. It's £10m in total over 3 years. If we were found to be in breach, at worst we"ll get a slap on the wrist via a small fine.

Maybe this was also behind the PL's attempt to get a settlement, as in the only thing they really had on us was the alleged Toure/Seluk payment.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
You really have to be careful with this stuff, as was clear from the start of the Der Spiegel 'revelations'. They'd cherry-pick isolated emails to "prove" we'd done something wrong without any context. Etisalat was a case in point, where ADUG clearly funded the original sponsorship (which was prior to FFP) but later claimed it back off them. CAS showed that the accounting entries clearly showed a liability and that ADUG was the creditor. It's possible this was the case with Seluk, or that there was some other perfectly legitimate reason why we did it. We were spending money like crazy at that time so must have paid loads to other agents. Why would we pay another via ADUG.

But even if we assume the worst, a one-off £4m 'saved' gives us no financial advantage whatsoever, like the £1.75m a year to Mancini. It's £10m in total over 3 years. If we were found to be in breach, at worst we"ll get a slap on the wrist via a small fine.

Maybe this was also behind the PL's attempt to get a settlement, as in the only thing they really had on us was the alleged Toure/Seluk payment.
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Yep. I can't imagine there is anything in it once the relevant details are known. And even if there were, it must be nearly impossible to get proof unless someone squeals.

Just pointing out that the player remuneration allegations are more than just Fordham. Up to now, I thought it was just that.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
What a player on his day, the rags were fucking terrified of him; shame he had to slightly tarnish his legacy. Still one of our greatest players, though. Without a doubt. I’d say in the top three or four. Although that list is a really tough one to call tbf!
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Hopefully over the next 10 seasons you struggle to include him in the top 10.

Shows the high quality work behind the scenes at city. I can’t make up my mind at all regarding a top 5. Toure was a colossal player. He couldn’t hide being a twat like most players.

Gonna need more training pitches. Maybe use old Trafford next -:)
 
wolviedinho said:
Hopefully over the next 10 seasons you struggle to include him in the top 10.

Shows the high quality work behind the scenes at city. I can’t make up my mind at all regarding a top 5. Toure was a colossal player. He couldn’t hide being a twat like most players.

Gonna need more training pitches. Maybe use old Trafford next -:)
Click to expand...
Kev, Sergio and Dave have to be in there.
 
Tragic Twat has spoken. City should admit to the charges, be relegated, and pay substantial damages. Only in his world.(see below)

———

There is simply no way to know with any certainty. No-one can predict the future of something like this because there are too many variables. I do suspect that two matters will be absolutely crucial to whether the PL is successful or not though…

1. Whether the PL can sufficiently evidence the charges for failing to provide accurate details for player and manager payments (the off the books payments mentioned above) and in doing so, result in the IC making a finding of fact that some of the key players in the case were dishonest. The transaction evidence is there to back up the email arrangements and contracts. Do this… and it would weaken a key pillar of any defence - the credibility of those persons.

2. How the PL’s legal team addresses any attempt by Man City’s legal team to undermine the email evidence.

I do not see a world where the PL loses this case unless a plausible explanation for these emails’ existence is provided that does not involve the arrangements taking place.

This is because however powerful witness testimony is, there is the possibility it could be false. Given the nature of the alleged offences (that these well-respected people in powerful positions in Govt. and reputable organisations conspired to commit fraudulent acts) it is incoherent to accept this as a possibility but not accept a possibility that they would lie.

The same goes for any accounting evidence. If you accept the possibility that the allegations are true, then it would be incoherent to say that it’s not possible that accounting information could be tampered with as well.

I am not saying this has or will be done, or even that the IC will consider it likely. The starting position, before any evidence is heard, will be that it is inherently unlikely. I’m saying that given the nature of the charges, such possibilities cannot be dismissed.

However, what can be considered an impossibility is that the emails were written for no reason whatsoever. This is simply not possible. There has to be reason. The PL will assert the reason is that the arrangements described were undertaken. Man City must offer an alternative, reason for why they exist which contradicts this. Without that, the other evidence that Man City supplies will be insufficient because it would require the IC to make an unbelievable finding. Literally unbelievable.

So how might the Man City legal team address this? I do not know. Assuming they have no actual, plausible explanation for the emails, then If I were them, I would seek to tackle the emails one by one in a very lengthy way, adding as much complexity as I could to try and increase their ambiguity, and in doing so, reduce the focus of the IC members. The more you draw out the analysis on each; by the time you’ve finished with one, it’s hard to remember the start let alone the last one, limiting the impact they will have. Basically, you make it hard to see the wood for the trees. The PL’s legal team would need to manage such a challenge but it is very achievable.

Sadly the IC will not be public but hopefully, one day, we will get to read about it.
 
jrb said:
Tragic Twat has spoken. City should admit to the charges, be relegated, and pay substantial damages. Only in his world.(see below)

———

There is simply no way to know with any certainty. No-one can predict the future of something like this because there are too many variables. I do suspect that two matters will be absolutely crucial to whether the PL is successful or not though…

1. Whether the PL can sufficiently evidence the charges for failing to provide accurate details for player and manager payments (the off the books payments mentioned above) and in doing so, result in the IC making a finding of fact that some of the key players in the case were dishonest. The transaction evidence is there to back up the email arrangements and contracts. Do this… and it would weaken a key pillar of any defence - the credibility of those persons.

2. How the PL’s legal team addresses any attempt by Man City’s legal team to undermine the email evidence.

I do not see a world where the PL loses this case unless a plausible explanation for these emails’ existence is provided that does not involve the arrangements taking place.

This is because however powerful witness testimony is, there is the possibility it could be false. Given the nature of the alleged offences (that these well-respected people in powerful positions in Govt. and reputable organisations conspired to commit fraudulent acts) it is incoherent to accept this as a possibility but not accept a possibility that they would lie.

The same goes for any accounting evidence. If you accept the possibility that the allegations are true, then it would be incoherent to say that it’s not possible that accounting information could be tampered with as well.

I am not saying this has or will be done, or even that the IC will consider it likely. The starting position, before any evidence is heard, will be that it is inherently unlikely. I’m saying that given the nature of the charges, such possibilities cannot be dismissed.

However, what can be considered an impossibility is that the emails were written for no reason whatsoever. This is simply not possible. There has to be reason. The PL will assert the reason is that the arrangements described were undertaken. Man City must offer an alternative, reason for why they exist which contradicts this. Without that, the other evidence that Man City supplies will be insufficient because it would require the IC to make an unbelievable finding. Literally unbelievable.

So how might the Man City legal team address this? I do not know. Assuming they have no actual, plausible explanation for the emails, then If I were them, I would seek to tackle the emails one by one in a very lengthy way, adding as much complexity as I could to try and increase their ambiguity, and in doing so, reduce the focus of the IC members. The more you draw out the analysis on each; by the time you’ve finished with one, it’s hard to remember the start let alone the last one, limiting the impact they will have. Basically, you make it hard to see the wood for the trees. The PL’s legal team would need to manage such a challenge but it is very achievable.

Sadly the IC will not be public but hopefully, one day, we will get to read about it.
Click to expand...
Every passing day I have ever-increasing gut feelings, it's none other than our old friend Mr Nick Harris.

It's getting too obvious.
 
jrb said:
Tragic Twat has spoken. City should admit to the charges, be relegated, and pay substantial damages. Only in his world.(see below)

———

There is simply no way to know with any certainty. No-one can predict the future of something like this because there are too many variables. I do suspect that two matters will be absolutely crucial to whether the PL is successful or not though…

1. Whether the PL can sufficiently evidence the charges for failing to provide accurate details for player and manager payments (the off the books payments mentioned above) and in doing so, result in the IC making a finding of fact that some of the key players in the case were dishonest. The transaction evidence is there to back up the email arrangements and contracts. Do this… and it would weaken a key pillar of any defence - the credibility of those persons.

2. How the PL’s legal team addresses any attempt by Man City’s legal team to undermine the email evidence.

I do not see a world where the PL loses this case unless a plausible explanation for these emails’ existence is provided that does not involve the arrangements taking place.

This is because however powerful witness testimony is, there is the possibility it could be false. Given the nature of the alleged offences (that these well-respected people in powerful positions in Govt. and reputable organisations conspired to commit fraudulent acts) it is incoherent to accept this as a possibility but not accept a possibility that they would lie.

The same goes for any accounting evidence. If you accept the possibility that the allegations are true, then it would be incoherent to say that it’s not possible that accounting information could be tampered with as well.

I am not saying this has or will be done, or even that the IC will consider it likely. The starting position, before any evidence is heard, will be that it is inherently unlikely. I’m saying that given the nature of the charges, such possibilities cannot be dismissed.

However, what can be considered an impossibility is that the emails were written for no reason whatsoever. This is simply not possible. There has to be reason. The PL will assert the reason is that the arrangements described were undertaken. Man City must offer an alternative, reason for why they exist which contradicts this. Without that, the other evidence that Man City supplies will be insufficient because it would require the IC to make an unbelievable finding. Literally unbelievable.

So how might the Man City legal team address this? I do not know. Assuming they have no actual, plausible explanation for the emails, then If I were them, I would seek to tackle the emails one by one in a very lengthy way, adding as much complexity as I could to try and increase their ambiguity, and in doing so, reduce the focus of the IC members. The more you draw out the analysis on each; by the time you’ve finished with one, it’s hard to remember the start let alone the last one, limiting the impact they will have. Basically, you make it hard to see the wood for the trees. The PL’s legal team would need to manage such a challenge but it is very achievable.

Sadly the IC will not be public but hopefully, one day, we will get to read about it.
Click to expand...
Ha ha - what a fucking crock of shit! Surely at this stage this has to be Nick Harris because I doubt there would be 2 different people as equally deranged as each other spouting such shite!
 
wolviedinho said:
Hopefully over the next 10 seasons you struggle to include him in the top 10.

Shows the high quality work behind the scenes at city. I can’t make up my mind at all regarding a top 5. Toure was a colossal player. He couldn’t hide being a twat like most players.

Gonna need more training pitches. Maybe use old Trafford next -:)
Click to expand...
He had one absolutely phenomenal season, which was 2013/14 and was probably the best single season from a single player I've ever seen in over 50 years. But he could also be very variable.
 
Will we know in advance when the IC hearing is or will we just hear one day that the hearing took place a few weeks ago and this is the outcome?
 
jrb said:
Tragic Twat has spoken. City should admit to the charges, be relegated, and pay substantial damages. Only in his world.(see below)

———

There is simply no way to know with any certainty. No-one can predict the future of something like this because there are too many variables. I do suspect that two matters will be absolutely crucial to whether the PL is successful or not though…

1. Whether the PL can sufficiently evidence the charges for failing to provide accurate details for player and manager payments (the off the books payments mentioned above) and in doing so, result in the IC making a finding of fact that some of the key players in the case were dishonest. The transaction evidence is there to back up the email arrangements and contracts. Do this… and it would weaken a key pillar of any defence - the credibility of those persons.

2. How the PL’s legal team addresses any attempt by Man City’s legal team to undermine the email evidence.

I do not see a world where the PL loses this case unless a plausible explanation for these emails’ existence is provided that does not involve the arrangements taking place.

This is because however powerful witness testimony is, there is the possibility it could be false. Given the nature of the alleged offences (that these well-respected people in powerful positions in Govt. and reputable organisations conspired to commit fraudulent acts) it is incoherent to accept this as a possibility but not accept a possibility that they would lie.

The same goes for any accounting evidence. If you accept the possibility that the allegations are true, then it would be incoherent to say that it’s not possible that accounting information could be tampered with as well.

I am not saying this has or will be done, or even that the IC will consider it likely. The starting position, before any evidence is heard, will be that it is inherently unlikely. I’m saying that given the nature of the charges, such possibilities cannot be dismissed.

However, what can be considered an impossibility is that the emails were written for no reason whatsoever. This is simply not possible. There has to be reason. The PL will assert the reason is that the arrangements described were undertaken. Man City must offer an alternative, reason for why they exist which contradicts this. Without that, the other evidence that Man City supplies will be insufficient because it would require the IC to make an unbelievable finding. Literally unbelievable.

So how might the Man City legal team address this? I do not know. Assuming they have no actual, plausible explanation for the emails, then If I were them, I would seek to tackle the emails one by one in a very lengthy way, adding as much complexity as I could to try and increase their ambiguity, and in doing so, reduce the focus of the IC members. The more you draw out the analysis on each; by the time you’ve finished with one, it’s hard to remember the start let alone the last one, limiting the impact they will have. Basically, you make it hard to see the wood for the trees. The PL’s legal team would need to manage such a challenge but it is very achievable.

Sadly the IC will not be public but hopefully, one day, we will get to read about it.
Click to expand...
My oh my, what a confused load of utter bollocks !
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
He had one absolutely phenomenal season, which was 2013/14 and was probably the best single season from a single player I've ever seen in over 50 years. But he could also be very variable.
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Everyone bangs on about that season but his better work came in the spring of 2011 & 2012, where it all began ❤️
 
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