The Labour Government

Alan Harper's Tash said:
Using the less harmful vapes and you are less restricted seems a reasonable strategy to me.

If someone developed an alcohol which was less harmful to the liver, I’d be all for phasing out the alcohol used now.
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There is a lack of evidence on vapes. That doesn't mean safer it's a guess. Alcohol causes a lot more damage than to the liver. So as we seem obsessed with making society(I hate that word) risk free let's ban it, let's ban and restrict anything that can cause danger to oneself and others.
Its easy to restrict something when someone doesn't do it, fortunately there are still some people around who see the hypocrisy in things.

I think the balance is currently fine, people have a choice, the tax pays for the cost to society certainly as much as anything else does. The risk to those inadvertently getting a wiff of smoke is minuscule to be almost non existent.
 
hilts said:
There is a lack of evidence on vapes. That doesn't mean safer it's a guess. Alcohol causes a lot more damage than to the liver. So as we seem obsessed with making society(I hate that word) risk free let's ban it, let's ban and restrict anything that can cause danger to oneself and others.
Its easy to restrict something when someone doesn't do it, fortunately there are still some people around who see the hypocrisy in things.

I think the balance is currently fine, people have a choice, the tax pays for the cost to society certainly as much as anything else does. The risk to those inadvertently getting a wiff of smoke is minuscule to be almost non existent.
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Fair enough.

File under bloke disagrees with potential policy.
 
I was all for the smoking ban indoors but this is fucking bonkers.
I was always lead to believe that smokers more than covered their cost to the NHS due to tax. Where's all that money gonna come from if everyone stops?
 
hilts said:
There is a lack of evidence on vapes. That doesn't mean safer it's a guess. Alcohol causes a lot more damage than to the liver. So as we seem obsessed with making society(I hate that word) risk free let's ban it, let's ban and restrict anything that can cause danger to oneself and others.
Its easy to restrict something when someone doesn't do it, fortunately there are still some people around who see the hypocrisy in things.

I think the balance is currently fine, people have a choice, the tax pays for the cost to society certainly as much as anything else does. The risk to those inadvertently getting a wiff of smoke is minuscule to be almost non existent.
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Can't stand vaping me, cheers for letting me inhale your strawberry breath haha. I actually think it's disgusting that smoking cigs was replaced with a product aimed at getting kids and teens hooked on nicotine it is rife. And some of these vapes contain 20 cigs worth of nicotine and they puff on them none stop. I think the current setup with smokers in beer gardens is fine, rather more effort went into helping people stop without treating them like lepers.
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
Using the less harmful vapes and you are less restricted seems a reasonable strategy to me.

If someone developed an alcohol which was less harmful to the liver, I’d be all for phasing out the alcohol used now.
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around 75k deaths per year are a result of smoking tobacco - one person dies every five minutes - not my figures they are from CRUK. Imagine if cigarettes had just been invented and someone proposed to sell something that killed 75k of its consumers annually there would be outcry.

Remember there has been outcries over vapes and possible harm so I don't get what is going on other than because its a Labour Govt proposition its a bad one. Many seem to forget Sunak's proposals on smoking - in the manifesto - was an ultimate phasing out of smoking aiming for a smoke free Britain by 2030. Don't recall Tories outrage at that plan - probably because it came from "their side"

Smoking costs the NHS £17bn per year.
 
Elbow beards said:
I was all for the smoking ban indoors but this is fucking bonkers.
I was always lead to believe that smokers more than covered their cost to the NHS due to tax. Where's all that money gonna come from if everyone stops?
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This tax year the taxes on Tobacco are predicted to be £8.8bn. The NHS reckons smoking related disease treatments cost it £17bn. There are also other costs to the economy you have to factor in.
 
How exciting, the smokers get to form their own type of 1930’s speakeasy……illicit secret smoking bars popping up all over the uk…..wish I smoked now just for the craic.
 
bluethrunthru said:
around 75k deaths per year are a result of smoking tobacco - one person dies every five minutes - not my figures they are from CRUK. Imagine if cigarettes had just been invented and someone proposed to sell something that killed 75k of its consumers annually there would be outcry.

Remember there has been outcries over vapes and possible harm so I don't get what is going on other than because its a Labour Govt proposition its a bad one. Many seem to forget Sunak's proposals on smoking - in the manifesto - was an ultimate phasing out of smoking aiming for a smoke free Britain by 2030. Don't recall Tories outrage at that plan - probably because it came from "their side"

Smoking costs the NHS £17bn per year.
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I think a lot of the annoyance around this policy is the feeling of being controlled more.

Different countries are all trying to irradiate cigarettes and are trying different methods of doing it. I’m not sure focussing on beer gardens is the best method and expect it never to happen.

Making them £30 a pack would be more effective.

I’ve had family members die from smoking related diseases. It’s grim.
 
Scottyboi said:
Can't stand vaping me, cheers for letting me inhale your strawberry breath haha. I actually think it's disgusting that smoking cigs was replaced with a product aimed at getting kids and teens hooked on nicotine it is rife. And some of these vapes contain 20 cigs worth of nicotine and they puff on them none stop. I think the current setup with smokers in beer gardens is fine, rather more effort went into helping people stop without treating them like lepers.
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Nicotine isn't actually that harmful. It's all the other shit in the cigarettes. There's enough research for us to know that vaping isn't as bad as smoking. It's not harmfree though.

The goverment plans to get rid of all the disposable flavoured shit that attracts young people.

Smokers get plenty of support to stop smoking. The problem is that they don't stay quit for very long. So we need to push the people who will never consistently quit smoking, into vaping instead.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
Nicotine isn't actually that harmful. It's all the other shit in the cigarettes. There's enough research for us to know that vaping isn't as bad as smoking. It's not harmfree though.

The goverment plans to get rid of all the disposable flavoured shit that attracts young people.

Smokers get plenty of support to stop smoking. The problem is that they don't stay quit for very long. So we need to push the people who will never consistently quit smoking, into vaping instead.
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But nicotine is a highly addictive substance, so they're making all these different flavoured vapes aimed at recruiting new users from a young age to replace all those lost from the price of smoking. It should never have been allowed to happen highly unregulated Chinese shite being inhaled by people thinking it's safe because at least it isn't tobacco.

I know someone with COPD who vapes, he's fucked and getting worse. The vape seems every bit as hard to give up as smoking a proper cig.
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
I think a lot of the annoyance around this policy is the feeling of being controlled more.

Different countries are all trying to irradiate cigarettes and are trying different methods of doing it. I’m not sure focussing on beer gardens is the best method and expect it never to happen.

Making them £30 a pack would be more effective.

I’ve had family members die from smoking related diseases. It’s grim.
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a little reported side note is that Farage's annoyance is aimed at Labour where as yet no ban applies but his home town ( Brussels ) these laws already apply
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
I think a lot of the annoyance around this policy is the feeling of being controlled more.

Different countries are all trying to irradiate cigarettes and are trying different methods of doing it. I’m not sure focussing on beer gardens is the best method and expect it never to happen.

Making them £30 a pack would be more effective.

I’ve had family members die from smoking related diseases. It’s grim.
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Bloody hell.
Irradiating seems a bit extreme!
 
Blue and true said:
Blindingly obvious to everyone except selfish pricks who were happy to see our public services and sectors neglected of investment if it meant they could shovel away more of their "hard-earned".
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Public sector paybill is current £240bn, a third of spending on public services and 12% of all government spending.
Neglected?
 
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Postman Pep said:
Whatever next



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Ever had the feeling that they want to keep people alive longer just so they get a better return on their investment, with this and the smoking ban.

We get people to live longer so they can work longer and we can push the state pension age up to 75.
 
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johnny crossan said:
Public sector paybill is current £240bn, a third of spending on public services and 12% of all government spending.
Neglected?
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Most of our public services are so-so. People who think that more money will solve all the problems are kidding themselves, not to mention their aversion to higher taxes.
 
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I think philosophically this kind of policy is where Labour and I tend to diverge on general approach - which is why I often find myself voting Lib Dem.

I am a “tax it, don’t ban it” kind of guy. With the exception being where there is good evidence that the act is harming others directly (which is why banning smoking indoors was sensible).

I think if smoking is costing the NHS more than the tax receipts bring in then the approach should be to increase the taxes until it no longer does. Over time this will either lead to fewer smokers because people can’t afford it, or enough taxes to cover the cost. Logically it has to result in one or the other and in either instance the societal cost is solved for. This is already happening in the UK as in 50 years we’ve gone from 50% to 15% of adults smoking. Therefore the costs of treating smoking related issues should inevitably start to drop over the next few decades.

I think this should also be our broad approach with all drugs, rather than creating underground economies and crime that needs policing - create tax revenues that can be used to help the people caught in the throes of addiction.

But… clearly our state doesn’t work like that which is just a fact of life. So the question is, is this legislation reasonable within the framework of our country’s existing drug policy? And I’m not sure there is good evidence that this would reduce the burden on the NHS in any tangible way, I personally tend to stay indoors to avoid being smoked out in a beer garden and I tend to think that for most adults this is just a choice they are making much like the choice of whether to smoke or not in the first place. And if people can’t smoke in beer gardens, I tend to be of the opinion they will just find somewhere else to do it. So colour me unconvinced. Maybe banning kids from being in those environments is sensible, though?

I’m not set dead against it but I need to see some good evidence that this kind of policy would be effective and thus far it’s all quite speculative.
 
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