Middle East Conflict

[Pelegrinni]

Jews were not all expelled from Medina.
Only the three Jew tribes Nadir, Qurayza and Qanuyna were eventually expelled.

Prior to expulsion (and for the most heinous Jews, death penalty) Jews were provided equal rights to other religions.

The reason why the specific Nadir, Qurayza and Qanuyna Jews were expelled were because of their belief in the Promised Land and that only Jews are deserving of the earth (dunya).

When Islam began governing both Medina and Mecca and surroundings, the Constitution of Medina was declared.

It declared equal rights for ALL religions and tribes and to protect the territory from outsider invasion. Declared by the Muslim governor Muhammad.

One example is tax. For Muslims, they annually had (and still now today they do) to pay for zakah. The collected zakah is then funded to 6 Muslim groups of the territory, viz.
1) fakir (very poor)
2) miskin (poor)
3) aul (someone who does the zakah)
4) hutang (those with severe debt)
5) ibnu sabil (wanderers who are homeless)
6) fisabilillah (volunteer soldiers to protect the territory and all the religious tribes within).

Those who are not in any one of the six above are required to pay tax (zakah).

For non-Muslims (i.e. Christians, Jews, Druze, Polytheists) they are not allowed to pay zakah, but its equivalent tax which is jizyah. The tax are of equivalent amount to zakah with the exception that the funds go to the non-Muslim very poor, poor, jizyah, those in severe debt, wanderers, and volunteer soldiers to protect the Medina-Mecca territory. The non-Muslim volunteer soldiers are called dhimmis and they are exempted from tax.

In general, the order of the Medina constitution is protection of all Medina and Meccan populace from external harm. Even because of the Constitution that Mohammad’s staunchest (the polytheist Abu Sufian supreme commander of the Quraisy Mecca) who only intent was to kill Muhammad in their many battles were eventually pacified and became Muhammad’s ally. Muhammad had every opportunity to assign death penalty to the person (Abu Sufian) who wanted to assassinate Muhammad, but Abu Sufian was forgiven and thus the polytheist Quraisy and the monotheistic Abrahamic religions became interfaith.

The only Jews expelled from Medina Mecca and their territories were the Nadir, Qanuyna and Qurayza because they were zealots who wanted to kill the governor and all Muslims so that the land is only Jew.

Add-on fact, the word zealot is Hebrew because Jews were the first known concept of zealotry (even before Japan shinobi (ninjas) and the Arab hashashins (ie. Assassins)). The most known Jew zealots being the Sicarii who killed any Jew person against monofaith. Thousands of Jew civilians were killed by the Sicarii Jews.

During the Greco-Roman Caesarea age, many years before Islam came to be, the zealots and Sicarii were the militia (extremists) who killed civilians including moderate Jews.

The equivalent of extremists in today’s age include the Kahanist (Kach and Eyal being two of them), the Irgun, Palmach, Lehi, and earlier in the 1930s the ZFG in Nazi Germany, and the RZI in fascist Italy.

ZFG was headed by Jabotinsky who founded Betar, and RZI was headed by Weizmann who followed Jabotinsky’s Betar. Betar is pro-fascism and fascist state. Their Beitar fatigue is fascism.

Thank you for confirming that Jewish tribes were expelled.
What happened to the remaining Jewish tribes. Are they still in Arabia today

 

[BlueAnorak]

I hate this , wtf are we sending our airforce to shoot down missles for israel , us and the yanks should be saying you have done enough in gaza and if you choose to be the agressors then you shoot your own missles down , we are enabling them and the idf under that horrible leader are out of control

They can't shoot down balastic missiles they can only shoot down drones - which never arrived.

 

[The blue phantom]

Its a pity they don't guard the poor women and children in Palestine.

Weird isn't it. Missile after missile slaughtering Palistinian children yet we stand by and watch. Truly a fucked up world we live in.

 

[Pelegrinni]

Jordan gave a statement at the UN which is Arab nations are all willing to normalise ties with Israel if Israel only recognises a Palestinian state. Clearly Israel is not willing to recognise a Palestinian state and that's the problem at least in terms of peace with Arab countries and the larger international community.

This however leaves a vacuum of opposition to Israel and that vacuum has come to be occupied by extremists such as Hamas and Hezbollah. Iran has its own ideological goal to eliminate Israel and they're subsequently funding the extremists and this war. But this war is circular, Iran won't disappear and neither will Hamas or Hezbollah and especially not Israel.

Ultimately though Israel is an international state held to international standards. I totally supported Israel's right to defend itself post 7/10 but is Israel helping itself by invading and bombing innocents in Lebanon? What is the end goal other than for Israel to remain at perpetual war whilst at home it continues to slowly wipe out the Palestinians?

It has to stop now but that won't happen because again Israel does not want to recognise its sins but they have to be recognised for there to be peace. Until then the war will continue until somebody stops it or there is nobody left.

Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia etc all want peace and some have signed peace agreement with Israel.
You will notice that there has not been a single shot fired between Israel and these countries.

Israel is a peace loving nation and people. Don't take my words for it. Judge them by their actions.

For example, look at how they fight against their enemies in battle. They give advance warnings for civilians to evacuate before they attack. How many Arab countries have ever done such a thing to the civilian population during wartime?

Despite the constant rocket attack from Hamas, Israel still opened their hospitals to treat Palestinian children. Even the Hamas leader was treated of cancer in an Israeli hospital. They allowed many thousands to cross the border into Israel to work and feed their families (Egypt refused Palestinians this privilege).

Look at the war in Gaza. Many people will tell you there's genocide going on. Hamas figures stated around 40 thousand dead so far. This figure includes Hamas fighters, civilians plus people who died of natural causes. From a population of more than two million, this is not what genocide looks like. Bashar Assad murdered more than 500k people within a short period but no one accuse him of genocide.

Israel allowed food convoys into Gaza only to be snatched by Hamas. I wait for anyone to show me any country at war that allowed food into enemy territory.

These are some of the facts that drive my position. Not sound bites from the crowd.

 

[Vic]

Easy to say that now while ignoring the historic rejection of the two state solution by the Arabs of Palestine.
First the Peel commission report was rejected. Then the League of Nations recommendations was rejected. Next is the Camp David accord. Every rejection is followed with an attack on the Jewish population.

Why do we always like to place a burden on the Jewish people that no other country in the world would accept?

In the context of today, Israel traded land for peace with Egypt. No wars between these countries to date.
Israel traded land for peace with the Palestinians in Gaza. They did not get the peace they wanted. they have every right to reclaim the land they won from Egypt.

What other people had someone else's land gifted to them?

And law of conquest was ruled unlawful (in international law) just when international law was being used to gift that land to the Jewish people. And not other land in the region.

 

[Ducado]

Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia etc all want peace and some have signed peace agreement with Israel.
You will notice that there has not been a single shot fired between Israel and these countries.

Israel is a peace loving nation and people. Don't take my words for it. Judge them by their actions.

For example, look at how they fight against their enemies in battle. They give advance warnings for civilians to evacuate before they attack. How many Arab countries have ever done such a thing to the civilian population during wartime?

Despite the constant rocket attack from Hamas, Israel still opened their hospitals to treat Palestinian children. Even the Hamas leader was treated of cancer in an Israeli hospital. They allowed many thousands to cross the border into Israel to work and feed their families (Egypt refused Palestinians this privilege).

Look at the war in Gaza. Many people will tell you there's genocide going on. Hamas figures stated around 40 thousand dead so far. This figure includes Hamas fighters, civilians plus people who died of natural causes. From a population of more than two million, this is not what genocide looks like. Bashar Assad murdered more than 500k people within a short period but no one accuse him of genocide.

Israel allowed food convoys into Gaza only to be snatched by Hamas. I wait for anyone to show me any country at war that allowed food into enemy territory.

These are some of the facts that drive my position. Not sound bites from the crowd.

Some of your points are of course correct, however you can not keep denying statehood and brutalising a population and and not expect consequences, both on the world stage and domestically, the difference between Assed and the Israel Assed has never claimed any moral high ground and has never had any pretentions of peaceful coexistence with anyone but his own family and russia

Where does Israel want and need to sit? It either becomes an apartheid state in a few years (with the rate of Arab population growth ) or gives the Palestinians a state of their own, yes one can argue that there is plenty of space all over the Arab world for a separate state but that's not the point (personally I would have given them the Sinai Peninsular but that ships sailed) so it has to be a contiguous area on what we know as the West Bank

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Mate, the simple fact is the IDF have killed way too many civilians in Gaza, whatever spin you try and put on it. The majority of the bombing clearly isn't targeted or intelligence led given the civillian death toll.

 

[Ducado]

By the way already the IDF have lost 7 soldiers and they have not advance much further than 1.5 Km and then had to retreat, the trap has well and truly been set the IDF can not sustain high casualty rates so proportionately 7 is a big loss. the Israelis have a saying 'Stuck in the Lebanese Mud' easy to get into but hard to get out of my Israeli friends are convinced that Hezbollah wanted an invasion because war is what they thrive on after all it was how they were created in the first place

 

[BlueAnorak]

Apart from Ducado most of the others just seem to think Israel are not occupying anywhere and have stolen no land. So their argument is why do our neighbours keep attacking us when we've done fuckall wrong!

I know what is guaranteed to get Israel to attack you and Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran have done it in spades.
Trying to kill Israelis begats a guaranteed response. Israel's opponents clearly wanted it and they will get it.- Israel is predictable.
Indeed, Israel's opponents couldn't give a shit about their own people. They want the genocide of 7.5m Jews in Isrrael and Palestine. Nothing else will do.
Sadly many on here clearly want that end result too. Talk of relocating Jews elsewhere is simply code for genocide as the Nazis did.
Israel can only give Palestinians their rights if they can be trusted. Sadly they can't be trusted at the momenr and and as things stand I can never see it happening.
Israel is not helping itself with some if it's actions but that is actually the result of a total lack of trust in the motives of it's opponents.
A spiral of death and destruction results till Palestinians and others see sense. Maybe the Israeli's being optimistic about trusting the Palestians too. But as things stand there isn’t a chance of that.
Till that day when Palestinians are willing to admit thar Israelis have as much right to coexist in the area then I will support Israel's right to defend itself against a murderous genocidal tyrany.
Sadly it isn't going to hange any time soon.

 

[cucumberman]

Thank you for confirming that Jewish tribes were expelled.
What happened to the remaining Jewish tribes. Are they still in Arabia today

No records of the Nadir, Qanuyna and Qurayza in Arabia now. Nadir and Qanuyna were expelled to today’s Syria. Expulsion however was not every single person. Moderate Jews from Nadir and Qanuyna who still abided to the constitution remained.

Qurayza’s fate however was more corporal because the punishment was death to men. Although they were pardoned earlier under the constitution, because of their previous (when the Qurayza attacked and besieged the Muslim and Medinan territory as assistance with Quraisy polytheists) the Qurayza was not spared. The remaining Qurayza women and children were however freed by the moderate Nadir of Medina.


The Shutayba tribe Jews did remain in the Arabia under the Medina constitution then, because the Shutayba allied with the Islam governance while still retaining their freedom of Jewish faith.

No one knows if Shutayba still has pure bloodline today because Arab tribes during the constitutions had interfaith marriage (though I understand that marriage means to convert to the given religion).

In general, the moderate Jews who defected from their initial tribes of Qanuyna and Nadir, and the Shutayba Jews who were pacifists, and other Jew tribes too ‘neutral’ to be documented as the infamous three tribes, were not recorded further in the annals of history and just referred to under the umbrella term Jews.

 

[Blue and true]

Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia etc all want peace and some have signed peace agreement with Israel.
You will notice that there has not been a single shot fired between Israel and these countries.

Israel is a peace loving nation and people. Don't take my words for it. Judge them by their actions.

For example, look at how they fight against their enemies in battle. They give advance warnings for civilians to evacuate before they attack. How many Arab countries have ever done such a thing to the civilian population during wartime?

Despite the constant rocket attack from Hamas, Israel still opened their hospitals to treat Palestinian children. Even the Hamas leader was treated of cancer in an Israeli hospital. They allowed many thousands to cross the border into Israel to work and feed their families (Egypt refused Palestinians this privilege).

Look at the war in Gaza. Many people will tell you there's genocide going on. Hamas figures stated around 40 thousand dead so far. This figure includes Hamas fighters, civilians plus people who died of natural causes. From a population of more than two million, this is not what genocide looks like. Bashar Assad murdered more than 500k people within a short period but no one accuse him of genocide.

Israel allowed food convoys into Gaza only to be snatched by Hamas. I wait for anyone to show me any country at war that allowed food into enemy territory.

These are some of the facts that drive my position. Not sound bites from the crowd.

Where to even start with this steaming pile of shite.

Israel a peace loving nation? There's a tonne of pictoral evidence from Gaza that would suggest otherwise; and more coming from Lebanon with every passing minute. Homes destroyed, hospitals destroyed, schools destroyed, families torn apart, thousands of children lying dead under rubble.

They give advance warnings of their intentions to kill and destroy? How nice of them. I'm sure that was a reassurance to the millions that have been displaced or killed.

Opening their hospitals to children? Again, how pleasant of them. Here's an idea, don't try to kill them in the first place.

Assad has been rightly coined a genocidal scumbag by basically every democracy in the world, so not sure where you're going with that.

And it's interesting you bring food convoys up, because not long ago two British citizens were killed by the IDF whilst trying to deliver food to starving Palestinians.

And I'll preempt your whataboutism response by stating, irreducibly, that Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorists. That doesn't change the fact that Netanyahu, his enablers, and the IDF are also terrorists.

 

[tel aviv city]

Mate, the simple fact is the IDF have killed way too many civilians in Gaza, whatever spin you try and put on it. The majority of the bombing clearly isn't targeted or intelligence led given the civillian death toll.

Civilians in Gaza ?
Kids who learn from age 4
Hate, kill ,what education what generation what a chance to them for normal ?
Hamas caver is that civilian in conical way
The world believes that picture
- we have the right to defend our country, one bomb in London not 181 like yesterday
And the world will justify any attack on civilians wherever they are

 

[kaz7]

Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia etc all want peace and some have signed peace agreement with Israel.
You will notice that there has not been a single shot fired between Israel and these countries.

Israel is a peace loving nation and people. Don't take my words for it. Judge them by their actions.

For example, look at how they fight against their enemies in battle. They give advance warnings for civilians to evacuate before they attack. How many Arab countries have ever done such a thing to the civilian population during wartime?

Despite the constant rocket attack from Hamas, Israel still opened their hospitals to treat Palestinian children. Even the Hamas leader was treated of cancer in an Israeli hospital. They allowed many thousands to cross the border into Israel to work and feed their families (Egypt refused Palestinians this privilege).

Look at the war in Gaza. Many people will tell you there's genocide going on. Hamas figures stated around 40 thousand dead so far. This figure includes Hamas fighters, civilians plus people who died of natural causes. From a population of more than two million, this is not what genocide looks like. Bashar Assad murdered more than 500k people within a short period but no one accuse him of genocide.

Israel allowed food convoys into Gaza only to be snatched by Hamas. I wait for anyone to show me any country at war that allowed food into enemy territory.

These are some of the facts that drive my position. Not sound bites from the crowd.

What a load of bollocks

 

[The blue phantom]

Civilians in Gaza ?
Kids who learn from age 4
Hate, kill ,what education what generation what a chance to them for normal ?
Hamas caver is that civilian in conical way
The world believes that picture
- we have the right to defend our country, one bomb in London not 181 like yesterday
And the world will justify any attack on civilians wherever they are

Why are the Palistinians caged up like wild Animals, Food and water and everything else comes with the Israelis permission?

 

[cucumberman]

aCivilians in Gaza ?
Kids who learn from age 4
Hate, kill ,what education what generation what a chance to them for normal ?
Hamas caver is that civilian in conical way
The world believes that picture
- we have the right to defend our country, one bomb in London not 181 like yesterday
And the world will justify any attack on civilians wherever they are

This opinion here is a perfect testament of supremacy.

 

[cucumberman]

Civilians in Gaza ?
Kids who learn from age 4
Hate, kill ,what education what generation what a chance to them for normal ?
Hamas caver is that civilian in conical way
The world believes that picture
- we have the right to defend our country, one bomb in London not 181 like yesterday
And the world will justify any attack on civilians wherever they are

So no wonder Hind Rajab the 6-year old child was killed. The car she was in was shot 355 times. So killing her is justified since she has been educated since age 4. Thanks for teaching many of us oblivious to our thinking. Us lesser mortals are not as astute.

Should we now delete Macklemore’s second song?

 

[Pelegrinni]

Why are the Palistinians caged up like wild Animals, Food and water and everything else comes with the Israelis permission?

What about Egypt?
Strange you choose to ignore that side of the border.
Israel has a border with Gaza just like any other country.
If Gaza wants good relations with their neighbour, then they should abandon the Hamas charter that calls for the destruction of Israel. Or is this too much to ask?

 

[Pelegrinni]

So no wonder Hind Rajab the 6-year old child was killed. The car she was in was shot 355 times. So killing her is justified since she has been educated since age 4. Thanks for teaching many of us oblivious to our thinking. Us lesser mortals are not as astute.

Should we now delete Macklemore’s second song?

I am not familiar with the story. But does it occur to you that maybe the child was not the target but the other occupants of the vehicle? Were they aware a child was in the vehicle?
I struggle to understand how some people delight in using the death of children as a weapon against Israel?

Do you think the soldier/police who fired the bullet goes home happy that they killed a four year old child?

 

[BlueTG]

Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia etc all want peace and some have signed peace agreement with Israel.
You will notice that there has not been a single shot fired between Israel and these countries.

Israel is a peace loving nation and people. Don't take my words for it. Judge them by their actions.

Ok. Judged them by their actions. Your assessment didn’t withstand.

 

[robbieh]

Whilst all this talk of who lived where 1400 years ago is fascinating, the recent past is more relevant whatever some might think.

I imagine many of us live in land in the UK that at the time of the Jewish diaspora was not inhabited by Anglo saxons. Maybe Romans, Celts but certainly not the English as we know them. Would the descendants of said Celts be entitled to come back and inhabit our property. Would a Spaniard who could trace his line back to a Roman general who lived in Verulamium? I think not.