Vat on Independent school fees?

[stonerblue]

40 schools out of how many 2600 ?
Back in 2020-21 ?
Before 26% pensions and 11.5% pay rises for teachers last in 2022?

I guess you and others mocking the sources can make a better judgement from the headlines in papers than people from bursar groups at the actual schools themselves.

You didn't read it did you?

 

[mosssideblue]

You don’t keep up with the news do you?

Obviously not, so can you elaborate

 

[Brewster's millions]

Obviously not, so can you elaborate

Or you could actually take your head out of the sand and read the papers.

 

[mosssideblue]

Or you could actually take your head out of the sand and read the papers.

What I saw on the news this morning was that the plan is still going and VAT will be introduced in Jan. Nothing about it being watered down, hence why I asked you to elaborate on that, so what is it?

 

[stonerblue]

In england they will have to now as they didn’t have to before.
10,000 figure is a figure for now before the introduction of vat. This figure would rise to around 60,000 by this time next year if vat is introduced in Jan 2025.

I'm asking you about business rates, not vat.
Your 10k figure is for the UK as a whole, most of which did not pay BR.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

In england they will have to now as they didn’t have to before.
10,000 figure is a figure for now before the introduction of vat. This figure would rise to around 60,000 by this time next year if vat is introduced in Jan 2025.

The 10,000 is *less* than the proportionate drop in state schools this year!

The 60,000 is a figure frankly dreamt up by the private school industry.

IFS:

2. The share of pupils across the UK in private schools has remained around 6–7% for at least the last 20 years (or about 560,000–570,000 pupils in England). This has occurred despite a 20% real-terms increase in average private school fees since 2010 and a 55% rise since 2003. Unsurprisingly, private school attendance is largely concentrated at the very top of the income distribution.

Our best judgement is that it would be reasonable to assume that an effective VAT rate of 15% would lead to a 3–7% reduction in private school attendance. This would likely generate a need for about £100–300 million in extra school spending per year in the medium to long run


Note also


If demand for private schooling reduces as a result of increases in post-tax fees, the additional tax revenue raised would likely be unaffected. This is because any reduced revenue from VAT on private school fees will likely be made up for by higher VAT revenues on other goods and services, holding overall consumer spending constant.

Tax, private school fees and state school spending | Institute for Fiscal Studies

This report compares private school fees and state school spending. It also examines Labour’s proposals to remove tax exemptions from private schools.

ifs.org.uk

The financial arguments against this are farcical.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

The 10,000 is *less* than the proportionate drop in state schools this year!

The 60,000 is a figure frankly dreamt up by the private school industry.

IFS:

2. The share of pupils across the UK in private schools has remained around 6–7% for at least the last 20 years (or about 560,000–570,000 pupils in England). This has occurred despite a 20% real-terms increase in average private school fees since 2010 and a 55% rise since 2003. Unsurprisingly, private school attendance is largely concentrated at the very top of the income distribution.

Our best judgement is that it would be reasonable to assume that an effective VAT rate of 15% would lead to a 3–7% reduction in private school attendance. This would likely generate a need for about £100–300 million in extra school spending per year in the medium to long run


Note also


If demand for private schooling reduces as a result of increases in post-tax fees, the additional tax revenue raised would likely be unaffected. This is because any reduced revenue from VAT on private school fees will likely be made up for by higher VAT revenues on other goods and services, holding overall consumer spending constant.

Tax, private school fees and state school spending | Institute for Fiscal Studies

This report compares private school fees and state school spending. It also examines Labour’s proposals to remove tax exemptions from private schools.

ifs.org.uk

The financial arguments against this are farcical.

It won’t work out at an effective rate of 15% either. It will be closer to 10%. The schools will swallow the rest via cost savings, lower capex and/or reduced surpluses.

 

[Brewster's millions]

40 schools out of how many 2600 ?
Back in 2020-21 ?
Before 26% pensions and 11.5% pay rises for teachers last in 2022?

I guess you and others mocking the sources can make a better judgement from the headlines in papers than people from bursar groups at the actual schools themselves.

Come on now mate, we all know that a few random headlines and links, lazily copied and pasted from a 30 second google search, trumps any knowledge of people who work in the affected industries and who are experiencing things first hand as part of their day job.

You should just listen to the various expert opinions on here and not worry about it.

I mean, how could you argue with people who think that 10,000 kids leaving private schools will only result in an extra 0.4 pupils in each state school, because the attrition rate will be perfectly distributed across each area of the country, with this logic presumably holding for SEND students as well. And of course parents who are already struggling or in some cases failing to pay the fees will just be able to rustle up a few extra grand anyway.

 

[arbabarshad]

You didn't read it did you?

Well forgive me, I read the first couple of paragraphs but I have read it now. And I am not sure what the relevance of 40 schools having satellite schools internationally is to UK VAT instroduction across 2600 or so schools.

If the relevance is that maybe this is what all 2600 schools should do (make money overseas and spend in UK) to negate the impact of VAT, its an impossible task. Not all schools have the resources to do it. The market is not that big. It is a very long term approach. Spend money on it now to benefit later. Adding the gift aid element, it'll just take more money out of the tax man than raise revenue for them.

Too many variables in the policy that ultimately may not achieve what it is advertised to achieve.

I am a labour voter but I think the impact assessment of this policy has been very poor.

The last paragraph from the quoted article:

"The ISC attributed the growth in satellite schools to international demand for British education and the success of earlier ventures. “It takes years to plan and set up satellite schools, so the idea that this is a kneejerk reaction to Labour’s policy is definitely wide of the mark,” a spokesperson said."

There is something to be said about standards of state schools as well where I know head teachers of state schools send their kids to private schools.

Some state schools are fantastic but others terrible. Focus should be to bring those terrible schools standards to be brought up in line with the fantastic schools. But this is a policy to symbolise and distract. A politicians policy one might say.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Well forgive me, I read the first couple of paragraphs but I have read it now. And I am not sure what the relevance of 40 schools having satellite schools internationally is to UK VAT instroduction across 2600 or so schools.

If the relevance is that maybe this is what all 2600 schools should do (make money overseas and spend in UK) to negate the impact of VAT, its an impossible task. Not all schools have the resources to do it. The market is not that big. It is a very long term approach. Spend money on it now to benefit later. Adding the gift aid element, it'll just take more money out of the tax man than raise revenue for them.

Too many variables in the policy that ultimately may not achieve what it is advertised to achieve.

I am a labour voter but I think the impact assessment of this policy has been very poor.

The last paragraph from the quoted article:

"The ISC attributed the growth in satellite schools to international demand for British education and the success of earlier ventures. “It takes years to plan and set up satellite schools, so the idea that this is a kneejerk reaction to Labour’s policy is definitely wide of the mark,” a spokesperson said."

There is something to be said about standards of state schools as well where I know head teachers of state schools send their kids to private schools.

Some state schools are fantastic but others terrible. Focus should be to bring those terrible schools standards to be brought up in line with the fantastic schools. But this is a policy to symbolise and distract. A politicians policy one might say.

I wonder where the money for that could possibly come from?

 

[arbabarshad]

The 10,000 is *less* than the proportionate drop in state schools this year!

The 60,000 is a figure frankly dreamt up by the private school industry.

IFS:

2. The share of pupils across the UK in private schools has remained around 6–7% for at least the last 20 years (or about 560,000–570,000 pupils in England). This has occurred despite a 20% real-terms increase in average private school fees since 2010 and a 55% rise since 2003. Unsurprisingly, private school attendance is largely concentrated at the very top of the income distribution.

Our best judgement is that it would be reasonable to assume that an effective VAT rate of 15% would lead to a 3–7% reduction in private school attendance. This would likely generate a need for about £100–300 million in extra school spending per year in the medium to long run


Note also


If demand for private schooling reduces as a result of increases in post-tax fees, the additional tax revenue raised would likely be unaffected. This is because any reduced revenue from VAT on private school fees will likely be made up for by higher VAT revenues on other goods and services, holding overall consumer spending constant.

Tax, private school fees and state school spending | Institute for Fiscal Studies

This report compares private school fees and state school spending. It also examines Labour’s proposals to remove tax exemptions from private schools.

ifs.org.uk

The financial arguments against this are farcical.

The Financial arguments in isolcation might seem that. But it is not a financial issue alone. It is kid's education and future. Cost benefit of overall financial revenue raised Vs negative impacts on kids education and their future. I am not sure if you can measure it in numbers but whatever way you look at it, it ends up seeming like a symbolic policy.

 

[arbabarshad]

I wonder where the money for that could possibly come from?

So you would reduce the standards of fantastic education from a 100 to 50 by putting financial pressures on those schools, to bring the standards of terrible schools up from 20-50. Not sure if there is a net gain on the overall standards of education.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

The Financial arguments in isolcation might seem that. But it is not a financial issue alone. It is kid's education and future. Cost benefit of overall financial revenue raised Vs negative impacts on kids education and their future. I am not sure if you can measure it in numbers but whatever way you look at it, it ends up seeming like a symbolic policy.

Right, so if it's not about the financial arguments, stop making financial arguments, specially when they don't add up.

I agree about kids education and future; I just reach the exact opposite conclusion about the policy. The number of children negatively affected by this is tiny, and that impact is small - they'll still have a school to go to after all. The number who can be positively impacted by investing the money in the state sector is huge.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

So you would reduce the standards of fantastic education from a 100 to 50 by putting financial pressures on those schools, to bring the standards of terrible schools up from 20-50. Not sure if there is a net gain on the overall standards of education.

Speaking of arguments that don't add up...

 

[stonerblue]

Well forgive me, I read the first couple of paragraphs but I have read it now. And I am not sure what the relevance of 40 schools having satellite schools internationally is to UK VAT instroduction across 2600 or so schools.

If the relevance is that maybe this is what all 2600 schools should do (make money overseas and spend in UK) to negate the impact of VAT, its an impossible task. Not all schools have the resources to do it. The market is not that big. It is a very long term approach. Spend money on it now to benefit later. Adding the gift aid element, it'll just take more money out of the tax man than raise revenue for them.

Too many variables in the policy that ultimately may not achieve what it is advertised to achieve.

I am a labour voter but I think the impact assessment of this policy has been very poor.

The last paragraph from the quoted article:

"The ISC attributed the growth in satellite schools to international demand for British education and the success of earlier ventures. “It takes years to plan and set up satellite schools, so the idea that this is a kneejerk reaction to Labour’s policy is definitely wide of the mark,” a spokesperson said."

There is something to be said about standards of state schools as well where I know head teachers of state schools send their kids to private schools.

Some state schools are fantastic but others terrible. Focus should be to bring those terrible schools standards to be brought up in line with the fantastic schools. But this is a policy to symbolise and distract. A politicians policy one might say.

The 'relevance' is that those private schools that have, and will, go down the 'international' route are making profits that aren't taxed.

 

[johnnytapia]

Come on now mate, we all know that a few random headlines and links, lazily copied and pasted from a 30 second google search, trumps any knowledge of people who work in the affected industries and who are experiencing things first hand as part of their day job.

You should just listen to the various expert opinions on here and not worry about it.

I mean, how could you argue with people who think that 10,000 kids leaving private schools will only result in an extra 0.4 pupils in each state school, because the attrition rate will be perfectly distributed across each area of the country, with this logic presumably holding for SEND students as well. And of course parents who are already struggling or in some cases failing to pay the fees will just be able to rustle up a few extra grand anyway.

SEND children at private schools are 100% funded by the LA if the child has an EHCP. And nearly 100% of SEND pupils at private schools have an EHCP. Won’t cost the parents of SEND pupils one additional pence.

 

[west didsblue]

Come on now mate, we all know that a few random headlines and links, lazily copied and pasted from a 30 second google search, trumps any knowledge of people who work in the affected industries and who are experiencing things first hand as part of their day job.

You should just listen to the various expert opinions on here and not worry about it.

I mean, how could you argue with people who think that 10,000 kids leaving private schools will only result in an extra 0.4 pupils in each state school, because the attrition rate will be perfectly distributed across each area of the country, with this logic presumably holding for SEND students as well. And of course parents who are already struggling or in some cases failing to pay the fees will just be able to rustle up a few extra grand anyway.

Did I really have to spell it out that it was an average of 0.4, not literally four tenths of a child?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

And of course parents who are already struggling or in some cases failing to pay the fees will just be able to rustle up a few extra grand anyway.

If they are failing to pay the fees now then surely they can’t afford private education irrespective of whether VAT is levied.

 

[Phil1]

First world problems eh..

 

[hcblue95]

Cry me a river for the posh little kiddos.