Assisted dying

The Black Shed said:
My dad passed away last year, following a massive stroke. When it happened it was instantly game over for him, in a physical sense. Mentally I think there was something there, but not only was he paralysed but also non-verbal. I'm sure as eggs is eggs that given the choice he would have asked for a shot of the good stuff with a single malt chaser. But even if assisted dying was on the menu, where does somebody stand given their condition and inability to consent?

The bizarre thing was that once the medical teams had got a handle on his heart and blood problems, they deemed him 'fit for discharge', not in immediate danger of dying and he was dispatched out into the care home system. Bizarre considering the state he was in. Anyway, a decision was made for him, not by me or anyone in the family. There was no POA in that respect, no written wishes.
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My condolences Shed.

Forward planning for something horrible occurring. A document signed and witnessed that states someone's wishes if incapacitated.
 
stonerblue said:
My condolences Shed.

Forward planning for something horrible occurring. A document signed and witnessed that states someone's wishes if incapacitated.
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Thank you fella.

It's something we all bury our heads in the sand with. Get the will done sure, get nominated guardians for the kids and any money. But forgetting about somebody to make health decisions on behalf of one's self, that gets overlooked. Even now, after going through that, I haven't done anything about it myself! I'll just get this sorted, maybe see to that etc and get round to it in a couple of weeks.... Think it falls under power of attorney.
 
The Black Shed said:
Thank you fella.

It's something we all bury our heads in the sand with. Get the will done sure, get nominated guardians for the kids and any money. But forgetting about somebody to make health decisions on behalf of one's self, that gets overlooked. Even now, after going through that, I haven't done anything about it myself! I'll just get this sorted, maybe see to that etc and get round to it in a couple of weeks.... Think it falls under power of attorney.
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After my Mum's death my Dad has made sure to be explicit in what he wants to happen should he be in a similar situation and has it all confirmed as part of his assignment of a PoA. My Mum's biggest fear was being in pain yet there wasn't anything in place legally to avoid it. I'd personally have given her the pill myself and taken the jail time and wouldn't have regretted it one bit. There might be complexities around this that need resolving but I don't think it's anywhere near as complicated as suggested. Ask 1000 people whether they'd want to live for a few months longer but in pain or die sooner but peacefully and I'd imagine the results would lean to the latter. If that's your starting point then all the laws and duty of care for professionals should be straightforward to amend accordingly.
 
The mp's will shit the bed and abstain or vote no. I really think this is important enough to put it to the people , we are the carers of the sick in the home , outside of the nhs , we all know family and friends who are suffering so much or those who found death peaceful, we should have our voices heard

We are all going to die , cancer is one in two people and MND cases are growing , there is a lot of painful and disability conditions as well

If we cant all have a say in this, what can we talk about and decide for ourselves , it would have strict criteria and it is only an option
 
Bill published. Main points

This bill would make it legal for over-18s who are terminally ill to be given assistance to end their own life. But there are requirements:

  • They must be resident of England and Wales and be registered with a GP for at least 12 months
  • They must have the mental capacity to make the choice and be deemed to have expressed a clear, settled and informed wish, free from coercion or pressure
  • They must be expected to die within six months
  • They must make two separate declarations, witnessed and signed, about their wish to die
  • Two independent doctors must be satisfied the person is eligible - and there must be at least seven days between the doctors’ assessments
  • A High Court judge must hear from at least one of the doctors and can also question the dying person, or anyone else they consider appropriate. There must be a further 14 days after the judge has made the ruling

It’s worth noting that medical staff are very poor at predicting prognosis in the weeks or months range. End of Life care is centred on 1 core principle, to neither hasten nor delay death and this breaks that principle.

Will need to be safe guards that patients must be alone when taking the drug and no one can help them. This will ensure consent and capacity at point of opting for death.

I also note the absence of legally allowing staff the right to refuse to provide the patient with the fatal medication in the above - even if self administered - that should be baked in to the final bill if it gets that far. No one has the right to demand another human help them kill themselves.
 
metalblue said:
Bill published. Main points

This bill would make it legal for over-18s who are terminally ill to be given assistance to end their own life. But there are requirements:

  • They must be resident of England and Wales and be registered with a GP for at least 12 months
  • They must have the mental capacity to make the choice and be deemed to have expressed a clear, settled and informed wish, free from coercion or pressure
  • They must be expected to die within six months
  • They must make two separate declarations, witnessed and signed, about their wish to die
  • Two independent doctors must be satisfied the person is eligible - and there must be at least seven days between the doctors’ assessments
  • A High Court judge must hear from at least one of the doctors and can also question the dying person, or anyone else they consider appropriate. There must be a further 14 days after the judge has made the ruling

It’s worth noting that medical staff are very poor at predicting prognosis in the weeks or months range. End of Life care is centred on 1 core principle, to neither hasten nor delay death and this breaks that principle.

Will need to be safe guards that patients must be alone when taking the drug and no one can help them. This will ensure consent and capacity at point of opting for death.

I also note the absence of legally allowing staff the right to refuse to provide the patient with the fatal medication in the above - even if self administered - that should be baked in to the final bill if it gets that far. No one has the right to demand another human help them kill themselves.
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It's shit, and from what i can see will do nothing for people who know what's coming due to their long term illness.
Why should they be alone?
I agree with your point about staff.
Nobody should have the right to deny another human their choice to end their life.
 
metalblue said:
Bill published. Main points

This bill would make it legal for over-18s who are terminally ill to be given assistance to end their own life. But there are requirements:

  • They must be resident of England and Wales and be registered with a GP for at least 12 months
  • They must have the mental capacity to make the choice and be deemed to have expressed a clear, settled and informed wish, free from coercion or pressure
  • They must be expected to die within six months
  • They must make two separate declarations, witnessed and signed, about their wish to die
  • Two independent doctors must be satisfied the person is eligible - and there must be at least seven days between the doctors’ assessments
  • A High Court judge must hear from at least one of the doctors and can also question the dying person, or anyone else they consider appropriate. There must be a further 14 days after the judge has made the ruling

It’s worth noting that medical staff are very poor at predicting prognosis in the weeks or months range. End of Life care is centred on 1 core principle, to neither hasten nor delay death and this breaks that principle.

Will need to be safe guards that patients must be alone when taking the drug and no one can help them. This will ensure consent and capacity at point of opting for death.

I also note the absence of legally allowing staff the right to refuse to provide the patient with the fatal medication in the above - even if self administered - that should be baked in to the final bill if it gets that far. No one has the right to demand another human help them kill themselves.
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The main issue for me is the timescales. It's very hard to determine accurately how long someone has got left and this could open a whole can of worms around that. Similarly, how exactly in this modern age are you going to get approval from two independent doctors and then a High Court judge? It's probably going to take 12 months to get that in place!
 
I can see this being abused, even with the safeguards. A close relative died of MND a few years ago, it was very hard for him and his wife and family and and all who knew him, but he told his wife through his electronic voice (which was actually his son who painstakingly voiced as many words as his Dad was likely to use, so his Dad could communicate with some clever technology) a few days before he passed away “I don’t want to die yet”. Others may feel differently, but we all know people react very differently. I fear that a lot of new MPs from all parties lack the experience to get their constituents’ views before November 29th.
 
Bournemouth Blue said:
I can see this being abused, even with the safeguards. A close relative died of MND a few years ago, it was very hard for him and his wife and family and and all who knew him, but he told his wife through his electronic voice (which was actually his son who painstakingly voiced as many words as his Dad was likely to use, so his Dad could communicate with some clever technology) a few days before he passed away “I don’t want to die yet”. Others may feel differently, but we all know people react very differently. I fear that a lot of new MPs from all parties lack the experience to get their constituents’ views before November 29th.
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Yep, I'm not comfortable with it either. When faced with a slippery slope best to avoid it altogether.
 
The twats will vote against it or abstain. It shouldnt be a decision made by individuals who can go private and get the best end of life care , have religious reasons to vote against etc, i am not at all comfortable that a few hundred can make a decision that affects seventy million people , it should be a referendum
 
stonerblue said:
It's shit, and from what i can see will do nothing for people who know what's coming due to their long term illness.
Why should they be alone?
I agree with your point about staff.
Nobody should have the right to deny another human their choice to end their life.
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It won’t help people like Sheds dad above or those with dementia or that type of thing - as they’ll lack any capacity when in their final 6 months.

My logic for being alone is to prevent any outside interference at the point of “no return”. That interference can be from family encouraging OR trying to dissuade and will give the person time to reflect in silence. Mourning can bring out all sorts of questions in people that are unfair so again it would save relatives from any accusations. As soon as the medication is taken (or not) they can return. Death won’t be instant I can’t imagine - any drug that brings instant death would likely not be pretty or peaceful.

Everyone has the right to end their life today mate. I get that they want professional help as the current options aren’t without risk or being messy / unpeaceful.
 
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supercity88 said:
The main issue for me is the timescales. It's very hard to determine accurately how long someone has got left and this could open a whole can of worms around that. Similarly, how exactly in this modern age are you going to get approval from two independent doctors and then a High Court judge? It's probably going to take 12 months to get that in place!
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I’d imagine there would be a process that doesn’t take too long otherwise it would be pointless. I’m surprised they are saying it can be in your local hospital mind. Where will it be done? Side room on a general ward? As an outpatient?
 
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kaz7 said:
The twats will vote against it or abstain. It shouldnt be a decision made by individuals who can go private and get the best end of life care , have religious reasons to vote against etc, i am not at all comfortable that a few hundred can make a decision that affects seventy million people , it should be a referendum
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Asking a bunch of barely literate people who don’t understand the complexities of it sounds like a solid idea.

MPs represent their constituents and if they sense their constituents want it they will vote for it. Email your local MP, maybe refrain from calling him/her a twat ;)

I do think it needs longer to be debated however - let’s have an honest and open discussion about it. Led by experts and the MPs can then an informed decision. Without time you feel an MP will likely opt to maintain the status quo if they lack information.
 
kaz7 said:
The twats will vote against it or abstain. It shouldnt be a decision made by individuals who can go private and get the best end of life care , have religious reasons to vote against etc, i am not at all comfortable that a few hundred can make a decision that affects seventy million people , it should be a referendum
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No it shouldn’t.
It’s my absolute right to determine my end if I so choose.
No one has the right to try to obstruct me or put barriers in my way.
I don’t give a flying fuck about anyone else’s religious or ethical stances.
It’s my life.
It’s my choice.
 
denislawsbackheel said:
No it shouldn’t.
It’s my absolute right to determine my end if I so choose.
No one has the right to try to obstruct me or put barriers in my way.
I don’t give a flying fuck about anyone else’s religious or ethical stances.
It’s my life.
It’s my choice.
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But, surely, that would need someone enabling you in some respect?
If only to prepare the meds etc?

I have no real "side" in any of this by the way.
 
The death pod seems to be the solution.

2024-07-17T105626Z_397335845_RC2XW8AJ2NI9_RTRMADP_3_SWISS-EUTHANASIA-MACHINE-1727178798.jpg
 
metalblue said:
I’d imagine there would be a process that doesn’t take too long otherwise it would be pointless. I’m surprised they are saying it can be in your local hospital mind. Where will it be done? Side room on a general ward? As an outpatient?
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Well, yes there would have to be a process but considering the current situation regarding both medical and legal waiting times I can't see an easy fix to suddenly find the required professionals to make these decisions.

6 months isn't a long time. To deliver that prognosis is exceptionally difficult for starters, but then to find two separate professionals to confirm you can go ahead and then book a slot with a High Court judge - who may need to call witnesses...not happening.
 
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