PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

My point wasn't that the two rules are in conflict. Just my clumsy question, I guess.

It seems to me both rules limit the rights of the parties under English law: X38 restricts the right to an arbitration appeal on a matter of law, and W1 clearly restricts (imh and simplistic o) the right of investigation to just player, manager and official.

So my question was really, I suppose, why does English law supercede W1 to allow the PL to contact third parties, when it doesn't supercede X38 to allow an appeal on a matter of law?

I am sure there is a reason, I just can't see it.
X.37 is simple - the parties expressly agree to carve out an appeal on law.
W.1 is also quite simple the other way. It is explicitly saying what the Board can do. But it can also do other things. It is not saying, for example, "but shall not have such power to make such enquiries from shareholders, commercial partners or any other party other than those referred to in this rule W.1."

Where silent, debate and potential challenge will occur.
 
The discussion has moved on and this was ignored. However, it's worth coming back to, I think, because there's a error here that's cited regularly and should be corrected.

The standard of proof applicable before the CAS was NOT the balance of probabilities, even though that's commonly asserted on here. As numbered para 200 of the CAS Award on page 56 stated, the Parties agreed "that the standard of proof [was] that of comfortable satisfaction" (my emphasis).

In the current PL proceedings, yes, the standard of proof is on the balance of probabilities as the PL's own rules make provision for this standard of proof. The proceedings are also subject to English law, meaning that there will be a requirement for evidence to be particularly cogent given the serious nature of the matters the PL has alleged. (A similar requirement for cogency existed before the CAS, too).

Comfortable satisfaction, which is discussed here, is a standard of proof that is tougher than the balance of probabilities but less tough than a formulation such as beyond reasonable doubt. It was originally developed for matters concerning alleged doping penalties, where it was felt that a balance of probabilities standard was unfairly low given the potentially catastrophic effect on an athlete's livelihood of a finding against that person, which would likely entail a lengthy ban.

The practice of the CAS evolved, however, to apply the comfortable satisfaction standard of proof in arbitrations where the parties hadn't themselves agreed to a different standard. It's relevant in our context because it's one of the outright lies or deliberately misleading half-truths propagated by out detractors in the wake of the CAS proceedings to cast a negative light on the result, allowing them to argue that the PL should nonetheless continue to investigate allegations against MCFC despite the UEFA case being resolved.

People may have forgotten about it now. However, the elevated standard of proof at play in CAS proceedings was cited by many of those hostile to us at the time as an important factor in regarding the CAS award as flawed - notwithstanding that the CAS found "no evidence" of guilt on the charges it examined, meaning UEFA wouldn't even have met a theoretical comically low standard of proof such as guilty on a vague notional possibility.

Many of us will no doubt remember some of the other arguments along similar lines. I mean stuff such as City having selected two of the arbitrators, UEFA's statute of limitations being applicable when there'd be no limitation issues for the PL (despite restrictions in the Limitation Act covering PL proceedings), and UEFA failing to appeal to the Swiss Court after the CAS issued its award (though the Swiss legal system would likely have laughed any such appeal out of court).

I like the idea of a standard of proof of "guilty on a vague notional possibility". That's probably the standard the PL was hoping for.
 
There’s nothing stopping the PL from approaching a potential witness but the witness can of course decline to engage.
The PL has now put in a rule requiring sponsors to sign up to an agreement to give the PL relevant data if required.
How can the PL require a third-party in a contract with one of its members, that it has no direct legal relationship with, and which is possibly based in a foreign country, to sign up to any agreement to give them any data they ask for?

Is that even enforceable?
 
How can the PL require a third-party in a contract with one of its members, that it has no direct legal relationship with, and which is possibly based in a foreign country, to sign up to any agreement to give them any data they ask for?

Is that even enforceable?
Presumably they can make it a requirement on the clubs that all sponsorship agreements must contain a clause to that effect. However, I'm also presuming that couldn't be done retrospectively and only in new or renewed agreements.
 
Presumably they can make it a requirement on the clubs that all sponsorship agreements must contain a clause to that effect. However, I'm also presuming that couldn't be done retrospectively and only in new or renewed agreements.
How on earth would that even work, you put that clause in you have basically destroyed the very idea of anybody sponsoring anyone, if you think companies are just going to open their books to an outside entity for the pleasure of sponsoring a football club and basically allow sensitive commercial information to be viewed by all and sundry then think again, do you really think etihad want their books to be seen by the pl who have direct links with emirates and thats just an example off the top of my head, it would be commercial suicide for the premiership to put any kind of a clause in.
 
How on earth would that even work, you put that clause in you have basically destroyed the very idea of anybody sponsoring anyone, if you think companies are just going to open their books to an outside entity for the pleasure of sponsoring a football club and basically allow sensitive commercial information to be viewed by all and sundry then think again, do you really think etihad want their books to be seen by the pl who have direct links with emirates and thats just an example off the top of my head, it would be commercial suicide for the premiership to put any kind of a clause in.
some sponsors may be a little sensitive to such scrutiny...Freddie Pye's scrap yard for instance.
 
X.37 is simple - the parties expressly agree to carve out an appeal on law.
W.1 is also quite simple the other way. It is explicitly saying what the Board can do. But it can also do other things. It is not saying, for example, "but shall not have such power to make such enquiries from shareholders, commercial partners or any other party other than those referred to in this rule W.1."

Where silent, debate and potential challenge will occur.

Fair enough, thanks. Understand a little better, but didn't the PL get burned once already by claiming the rules say specifically one thing but actually mean another? Or am I misremembering the Leicester appeal?
 
How on earth would that even work, you put that clause in you have basically destroyed the very idea of anybody sponsoring anyone, if you think companies are just going to open their books to an outside entity for the pleasure of sponsoring a football club and basically allow sensitive commercial information to be viewed by all and sundry then think again, do you really think etihad want their books to be seen by the pl who have direct links with emirates and thats just an example off the top of my head, it would be commercial suicide for the premiership to put any kind of a clause in.
Committing commercial suicide doesn't appear to be a great concern of the PL these days even though you would have thought it should be.
 
Committing commercial suicide doesn't appear to be a great concern of the PL these days even though you would have thought it should be.
i dont mean the pl although you are correct, they seem intent on destroying themselves, i meant businesses as well, the very idea that the pl believe their books should be subject to scrutiny by the pl because they choose to spend their money on putting money into the game would seem like madness to them.
 
No idea tbh.
It is in Spain.

The article makes an excellent point about the Haaland contract. There are very few global superstars on the level of Messi and Ronaldo now, but Haaland is approaching that level. Tebas used to fall all over himself wanking off Madrid and Barca and jumping through tons of hoops to make sure they kept these two globally known superstars in that league as a boon to their broadcasting negotiations.
Here, City have kept one of those global superstars in this league long term. He can say for the first time that the world's most famous players now don't just go to Madrid and Barca, we have them in the PL. That is something new.
Haaland isn't just a great player like a Salah. Nor is he a great marketing tool for growth in a specific region like Salah. He is a global superstar like Ronaldo. He is the player all kids in the playground bagsy. He is the player all the kids want to get in FIFA Ultimate Team and thousands of them watch streamers trying to get him. He is the man that the Premier League can build their entire marketing around for a footballing generation.
So if this was Spain then I imagine the league Chairman would probably send an email of congratulations with the implicit idea that it's made his job a little easier in the future.
I don't think City are sat fuming over this, it was probably just an offhand comment someone made to the journo who wrote a story around it because we live in a content mill now. But I'd also be a little surprised (though not angry) if they didn't send a little message.
 
Fair enough, thanks. Understand a little better, but didn't the PL get burned once already by claiming the rules say specifically one thing but actually mean another? Or am I misremembering the Leicester appeal?
The problem in Leicester is that the drafting, Leicester said, was unambiguous and clear. The appeal board agreed. But likewise, here there is no argument the PL can’t try and get information from outside those in W.1. Unambiguous
 
While Winter has sometimes criticised us, he has more often praised us. I think he probably tried to be fair and tell the truth when he was with The Times.
But now?

He’s got a lot scandalously wrong when criticising us. I think you are being overly generous with your credit.
 
How can the PL require a third-party in a contract with one of its members, that it has no direct legal relationship with, and which is possibly based in a foreign country, to sign up to any agreement to give them any data they ask for?

Is that even enforceable?
They can't. But as with APTs (unless overturned by the further determination), they can give the clubs obligations to deliver certain items - eg in the APTs

"the declaration of a director (or equivalent) of the relevant Associated Party by way of confirmation that they consider the Associated Party Transaction to be at Fair Market Value (pursuant to Rule E.56); and

iv. a summary and documentary evidence of the counterparty’s rationale
for entering into the Transaction, including its key marketing objectives, its key target markets, and its key customer target, to the extent the Club has access to such information and having taken reasonable stepsto procure that such evidence is submitted to the League;"


So obligation is the Clubs not the third parties to comply. If the Clubs can't deliver the third party piece they won't get it approved.

Not the same in disciplinary rules though
 
Strange pedantic point which isn't even what I said. The first sentence is about duration - the second is about it as a whole. The contract duration and incredible wage even at the start of the contract make it unique in England. It is by a mile (on the face of it) the largest ever English football contract.
I don't think it's pedantic, you talked about length making it unique with no mention of value so I pointed out a similarly lengthy contract. You then attempt to make me look like an uneducated cock that can't understand plain English by pretending you said something you didn't. How is anyone supposed to know your broader point was about value when you didn't mention it originally?
Anyway, whatever.
 
For some reason the fact that City seem to have briefed this feels like a bit of a sneer to Masters.

Maybe it’s me this time reading too much into things.
I’m genuinely starting to believe City might be taking the piss out of Masters particularly as the Haaland contract has perhaps a nod to 115.

If they are then they must know something ahead of the verdict or else why do it?

Could it be that the major charges were thrown out before the end of the case?

I’m really not one for conspiracy theories but City are behaving strangely if there is even a chance we have lost.

What’s going on?
 
I don't think it's pedantic, you talked about length making it unique with no mention of value so I pointed out a similarly lengthy contract. You then attempt to make me look like an uneducated cock that can't understand plain English by pretending you said something you didn't. How is anyone supposed to know your broader point was about value when you didn't mention it originally?
Anyway, whatever.
You ignored the other exchange in the thread. I am well aware Chelsea have signed players to similar length contracts - I have been discussing it for months. Do you really think anybody here hasn't heard about Chelsea's 8/9 year contracts? Clearly, my point on uniqueness is not purely down to a headline length of contract.

 

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top