The Labour Government

Hertzblue said:
You don't practice what you preach Bob.
Here is my reply to you from some weeks ago, still no reply from you on facts and figures.

View attachment 154923
A bit less hand wringing and a bot more maths please Bob. I don't doubt you could put your mind to it but you know won't like the conclusion.
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I provided facts and figures to you yesterday with the whole London GDP/taxation contribution to the national pie. You were moaning about social housing in London and ‘foreigners’ and what a burden they are etc and I pointed out, slightly tongue in cheek, that them ‘foreigners’ and their fellow Londoners, were pulling their weight in our most diverse city. There is a certain delicious irony to 13% of the population - half of which are foreign born - providing 26% of the tax revenue of the UK that tickled me.

You didn’t reply to that, which is fine. It’s a forum with a lot of back and forth and who cares if someone replies or not - well, it seems you do. So, as you took the trouble to reproduce what you previously said I broke it down to the simple question - what should we do about migration.

First off, we have been importing labour since the year dot and we have been moaning about it since the year dot. I have no idea why we moan about it, but we do and always have. We have been claiming the UK is full since the year dot as well. It isn’t full. It’s just a polite way of saying don’t come here.

We’ve also been providing shelter and asylum since the year dot and moaned about that too. Asylum is an old established religious practice of providing for those in need and modernised after WWII. A world war, genocide and millions dead tends to focus the mind I guess.

Anyway what do we do? Well, I suspect we will do what we have always done. Keep on importing labour and moaning about it. We might I suppose try and stop importing labour. The US is having one of its periodic fits over it and leading Florida to amend its child labour laws to fill in some of the gaps. Nothing says quality of life, like good old fashioned child labour :)

And we did vote to stop having transitory European labour with Brexit and ended up importing non European labour in even higher numbers (it will never not be funny) which along with greater refugee numbers because of climate and political instability and uncertainty is causing major angst. Some we actively welcome - the Hong Kong scheme for example and others we don’t.

As to my solution (drum roll). We do what we have always done. Import labour, moan about it, vote for those who say they have a solution and moan when no solution appears or is left broken on the rocks of reality.

And what is reality? Too many old fuckers like me and not enough young fuckers not fucking, or breeding to be accurate. We and others have a demographic problem. So, to keep the show in the road we import labour, some of which stays and some that doesn’t. And here is your first newsflash. This country will change as a consequence. It already has changed and it will keep on changing. And that is what this is all about. People don’t want it to change. They don’t want a world they can no longer understand. It’s wider than migration. It’s climate change, net zero, electric cars, diversity, woke, tik tok, cashless society, trans, whatever it is there will be lots of people who hate it. Some hate all of it and none of them understand it. Tick, tock, the world around you is changing and will keep on changing and the only constant will be change.

All I have for you is cold comfort. We will, like every other Western developed country, keep importing people to keep the lights on because a constant churn and flow of people back and forth works. Static and aging populations die out. Society needs new blood. It needs new ideas, modes of thinking. This is not revolutionary. This country was formed out of change, upheaval and invasion by foreigners who introduced new customs, ideas and languages. The only difference today is that the invaders come armed with work visas.

My musings for a Sunday morning for what it’s worth.
 
bluenova said:
Have I really reduced you to such a simplistic argument ;)

If you read my initial post, "London" is to blame. It sucks in the countries wealth but then distributes is in a ridiculous way. The OP was blaming immigrants for living in social housing in London, and taking that away from people who were born in the UK. I disagree, because it's simply a symptom of the broken city.

If you want me to play your game, then, on balance, the people with the power are more responsible than those at the bottom without it. Immigrants doing low paid service sector jobs aren't the ones who have driven regular Londoners from the city over the last few decades. It's almost impossible to work in retail, hospitality, security, cleaning or any of the other sectors that London needs to survive, and have anything like the kind of living conditions that would be normal elsewhere in the UK.
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I’m afraid that you’re the one peddling a simplistic argument.

In fact you’ve done more than that. You’ve provided a clear example of how migration works, and indeed a system where cheap migrant labour is attracted by rising demand and in displaces the resident population in the process.

The normal pressures that would have developed around wages and staff shortages, which would have checked London’s growth and indeed a degree of the growth in London house prices, have been greatly diminished by migration. But, strangely, you’ve still refused to accept the role played by migration in this process.

And you clearly suggested that the blame sits with City workers and similar types, using Farage as an example of someone who has to take responsibility. So no need to any games on that front, and no need to pretend otherwise.
 
inbetween said:
The greatest problem in the UK and Europe for that matter is access to capital. This is why the US has such a powerful tech sector where even a risky startup there can grab a few million without breaking a sweat. That happens because venture capital in the US stakes on 10 horses with 1-2 hitting the jackpot. There is no equivalent in the UK unless you went to private school and can lean on your mate who knows a friend of his dad.

People here therefore really have to believe that the only chance of getting the minimum capital for their startup is through risking it all themselves first only to then hand most of it over to those tossers on Dragons Den.

I don't know how to fix this. An infrastructure boom would be ideal but we're so far behind that I'm not sure if we're already a lost cause, maybe we always have been and that's why we get nothing. You only have to travel to places like Germany where the regionalisation is fantastic and it's sad really how horrendous things are in comparison.

London will always continue to dominate whilst we feed off the scraps and without huge change the only impact that big government has is whether those scraps are miniscule or tiny. To people in the north it therefore really doesn't matter whether the government of the day is the Tories, Labour or Willy Wonka.
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I could get on board with Willy Wonka running things, chocolate rivers are preferable to shit filled ones.

Grandpa has a better chance of staying warm as well:-)
 
BobKowalski said:
I provided facts and figures to you yesterday with the whole London GDP/taxation contribution to the national pie. You were moaning about social housing in London and ‘foreigners’ and what a burden they are etc and I pointed out, slightly tongue in cheek, that them ‘foreigners’ and their fellow Londoners, were pulling their weight in our most diverse city. There is a certain delicious irony to 13% of the population - half of which are foreign born - providing 26% of the tax revenue of the UK that tickled me.

You didn’t reply to that, which is fine. It’s a forum with a lot of back and forth and who cares if someone replies or not - well, it seems you do. So, as you took the trouble to reproduce what you previously said I broke it down to the simple question - what should we do about migration.

First off, we have been importing labour since the year dot and we have been moaning about it since the year dot. I have no idea why we moan about it, but we do and always have. We have been claiming the UK is full since the year dot as well. It isn’t full. It’s just a polite way of saying don’t come here.

We’ve also been providing shelter and asylum since the year dot and moaned about that too. Asylum is an old established religious practice of providing for those in need and modernised after WWII. A world war, genocide and millions dead tends to focus the mind I guess.

Anyway what do we do? Well, I suspect we will do what we have always done. Keep on importing labour and moaning about it. We might I suppose try and stop importing labour. The US is having one of its periodic fits over it and leading Florida to amend its child labour laws to fill in some of the gaps. Nothing says quality of life, like good old fashioned child labour :)

And we did vote to stop having transitory European labour with Brexit and ended up importing non European labour in even higher numbers (it will never not be funny) which along with greater refugee numbers because of climate and political instability and uncertainty is causing major angst. Some we actively welcome - the Hong Kong scheme for example and others we don’t.

As to my solution (drum roll). We do what we have always done. Import labour, moan about it, vote for those who say they have a solution and moan when no solution appears or is left broken on the rocks of reality.

And what is reality? Too many old fuckers like me and not enough young fuckers not fucking, or breeding to be accurate. We and others have a demographic problem. So, to keep the show in the road we import labour, some of which stays and some that doesn’t. And here is your first newsflash. This country will change as a consequence. It already has changed and it will keep on changing. And that is what this is all about. People don’t want it to change. They don’t want a world they can no longer understand. It’s wider than migration. It’s climate change, net zero, electric cars, diversity, woke, tik tok, cashless society, trans, whatever it is there will be lots of people who hate it. Some hate all of it and none of them understand it. Tick, tock, the world around you is changing and will keep on changing and the only constant will be change.

All I have for you is cold comfort. We will, like every other Western developed country, keep importing people to keep the lights on because a constant churn and flow of people back and forth works. Static and aging populations die out. Society needs new blood. It needs new ideas, modes of thinking. This is not revolutionary. This country was formed out of change, upheaval and invasion by foreigners who introduced new customs, ideas and languages. The only difference today is that the invaders come armed with work visas.

My musings for a Sunday morning for what it’s worth.
Click to expand...

We do need new ideas but you're whole post is just a rant on doing nothing new at all. Unless we do a Logans Run your view of forever growth of people has to and will fail.
When you know something cannot go on forever and is doomed to disaster and is fucking up the place where you live shrugging is all you seem to have.
I have a feeling if people and politicians were gonna be around a lot longer they would be more inclined to at least try and find a way off this path we are heading down.
 
Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
The labour and conservative vote is collapsing in quite a few areas. People are disillusioned with both parties.

Losing Durham council is pretty mad
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Finally, and about time, people have had enough of both parties. It’s been decade after decade after decade of shit from both of them. How it’s taken so long for people to have enough of them, I’ll never know. And still most voters will cling onto these two wastes of space in the next GE.

The bad thing is, the alternatives look useless.

The Social Democratic Party had the best manifesto in the last GE, but there’s only a handful of runners, mainly in the North West of England, so they’re never getting in.
 
Brewster's millions said:
I’m afraid that you’re the one peddling a simplistic argument.

In fact you’ve done more than that. You’ve provided a clear example of how migration works, and indeed a system where cheap migrant labour is attracted by rising demand and in displaces the resident population in the process.

The normal pressures that would have developed around wages and staff shortages, which would have checked London’s growth and indeed a degree of the growth in London house prices, have been greatly diminished by migration. But, strangely, you’ve still refused to accept the role played by migration in this process.

And you clearly suggested that the blame sits with City workers and similar types, using Farage as an example of someone who has to take responsibility. So no need to any games on that front, and no need to pretend otherwise.
Click to expand...

I picked out Farage because he's the one suggesting that immigrants are the problem, when I'm sure we both agree, it's much more complex. Not sure how you could actually read my first post, and say that I've made just one simplistic argument - it's also not exactly a revelation to suggest that people with power and money have more influence than those at the bottom of society. I've also not suggested that migration hasn't changed London - I completely agree that it has - but I was arguing that blaming migration is too "easy" an answer.

Do you really think that London is "working" but for migration driving down wages, and pushing up house prices? As you say, London's growth could have stalled without migration, but the foreign born influx is just as much a symptom as a cause.

I suspect we'd all appreciate a more balanced economy in London, and a spread of the wealth across the country, but then plenty would also argue that only a "world city", with that concentration of power and poverty, could create so much wealth. Nothing simplistic in the problem and no simplistic answers.
 
hilts said:
We do need new ideas but you're whole post is just a rant on doing nothing new at all. Unless we do a Logans Run your view of forever growth of people has to and will fail.
When you know something cannot go on forever and is doomed to disaster and is fucking up the place where you live shrugging is all you seem to have.
I have a feeling if people and politicians were gonna be around a lot longer they would be more inclined to at least try and find a way off this path we are heading down.
Click to expand...

I like to think it was more of a musing than a rant. Still, another man’s meat and all that.

And it was more if you project back and the one constant is that we are a migratory species - better land, better water, better climate, better opportunities, then people will always gravitate to what they see as better for them and their families and will continue to do so.

As for forever growth. The question is, I guess, ‘is there a limit to growth?’ The answer to that lies in our past. Growth used to be seen as assets, minerals, land and thus the answer is yes in that context. But then we redefined growth. It’s the old tea set analogy. How many tea pots, cups, saucers etc does a family need? The obvious answer is one teapot and a cup and saucer per person. That is a finite cap on growth. But if you sell the idea that you need a tea service for everyday use, a tea service for relatives and guests and an extra special tea service for when the vicar pops round then you need three tea services because you have been sold the idea that you need three, not the fact that you only need one.

And it is ideas that will ultimately determine growth, its rate and direction. The concept of consumerism turbo-charged growth. The digital economy was created and exploded during our lifetime. People earn a living on YouTube out of reacting to films and shows from people watching them watch films and TV shows. How crazy is that? Who would have imagined twenty odd years ago that such an industry exists? And an industry that is accessible for the price of a digital camera?

Time for a tea break methinks.
 
Blue Maverick said:
So you say it doesn’t affect you directly, well Labour are spending £6.5 billion on asylum and illegal immigrants, so that’s your taxes etc that is been spent that could otherwise be used for say WFA or the NHS etc etc, this isn’t chump change and when people are losing things and see everyday on the news boats offloading in Kent they use this and get pissed off. I’m all for proper immigration and allowing people in who we need in the country but if we don’t want to see the rise of the far right over here they need to get their act together, many fobbed off and said Reform would go away well the complete opposite has happened, maybe the only saving grace is the way Trump is acting it could have a knock on effect like it did in Canada because the right were on course to win there until Trump turned up.
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My taxes also paid for the a depraved nonce to be absolved of punishment and to be protected in a palace. So did yours. How do you feel about that? Incidentally, most of the Stop The Boaters won't give a fuck about that, which exposes their prejudices for what they really are. What about the tax dodgers funneling their wealth into offshore accounts and not paying their fair share? Or maybe the local pisshead who's fucked his liver beyond repair for a second time and is once again getting surgery on the taxpayers tab?

Point being, there are many things I begrudge paying my taxes on, still, I have no say in it. But paying for a family of refugees to spend a couple of nights in a hotel while visa applications are potentially processed isn't going to antagonise me. If it antagonises you, so be it. But the debate is stone dead if you're bringing taxes into it.

Quick edit: I deplore wholeheartedly labours reversal of the WFA, likewise their decision on PIP; but those decisions have got absolutely fuck all to do with immigration.
 
BobKowalski said:
I like to think it was more of a musing than a rant. Still, another man’s meat and all that.

And it was more if you project back and the one constant is that we are a migratory species - better land, better water, better climate, better opportunities, then people will always gravitate to what they see as better for them and their families and will continue to do so.

As for forever growth. The question is, I guess, ‘is there a limit to growth?’ The answer to that lies in our past. Growth used to be seen as assets, minerals, land and thus the answer is yes in that context. But then we redefined growth. It’s the old tea set analogy. How many tea pots, cups, saucers etc does a family need? The obvious answer is one teapot and a cup and saucer per person. That is a finite cap on growth. But if you sell the idea that you need a tea service for everyday use, a tea service for relatives and guests and an extra special tea service for when the vicar pops round then you need three tea services because you have been sold the idea that you need three, not the fact that you only need one.

And it is ideas that will ultimately determine growth, its rate and direction. The concept of consumerism turbo-charged growth. The digital economy was created and exploded during our lifetime. People earn a living on YouTube out of reacting to films and shows from people watching them watch films and TV shows. How crazy is that? Who would have imagined twenty odd years ago that such an industry exists? And an industry that is accessible for the price of a digital camera?

Time for a tea break methinks.
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I accept it wasn't a rant:-) my bad.

I was talking about growth of people(numbers not height) not tea cups though. A lot of tea cups is currently not a great concern to me. My apologies to the people of Staffordshire

The continual growth of people cannot and will not continue forever. The problem of us older fuckers living longer(dependant on some things beyond our control) will need to be addressed.

Putting it off out of convenience and let's be honest sheer selfishness whilst ruining our surroundings seems madness.

There may not be an answer that is acceptable to us as a species. But the lack of effort to even discuss it smacks of convenient head in sand syndrome to me.
 
Brewster's millions said:
I’m afraid that you’re the one peddling a simplistic argument.

In fact you’ve done more than that. You’ve provided a clear example of how migration works, and indeed a system where cheap migrant labour is attracted by rising demand and in displaces the resident population in the process.

The normal pressures that would have developed around wages and staff shortages, which would have checked London’s growth and indeed a degree of the growth in London house prices, have been greatly diminished by migration. But, strangely, you’ve still refused to accept the role played by migration in this process.

And you clearly suggested that the blame sits with City workers and similar types, using Farage as an example of someone who has to take responsibility. So no need to any games on that front, and no need to pretend otherwise.
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All them poor cockernees having to sell up and move out to Essex with a massive wad in their back pockets..
 
hilts said:
I accept it wasn't a rant:-) my bad.

I was talking about growth of people(numbers not height) not tea cups though. A lot of tea cups is currently not a great concern to me. My apologies to the people of Staffordshire

The continual growth of people cannot and will not continue forever. The problem of us older fuckers living longer(dependant on some things beyond our control) will need to be addressed.

Putting it off out of convenience and let's be honest sheer selfishness whilst ruining our surroundings seems madness.

There may not be an answer that is acceptable to us as a species. But the lack of effort to even discuss it smacks of convenient head in sand syndrome to me.
Click to expand...

I think we put it off through inertia. To break the pattern, you need to fundamentally rewire how the economy works, bearing in mind we are still enmeshed in other countries economies it is difficult to just unilaterally change direction and then you have the market reaction, interest rate and borrowing knock on effects which will impact on everyone especially mortgage holders. Politicians run scared of that. We saw how Truss and her fantasy budget went down.

But, I do think it is weird that we are being compelled to work longer when we were sold the idea of a three day week, early retirement and robots doing the heavy lifting - and flying cars - yet a lot of people have retired early, and working for many is more flexible, so perhaps it arrives through stealth and gradual change. A four day week trial would be interesting, universal basic income ditto - but then I would happily break the link with having to work.

I don’t disagree with your sentiment, but I see no issue pointing out that the way the system currently works and with an aging population then importing labour is the only obvious solution. To shift that you need major surgery and not kill the patient in the process.

This Govt will not go near anything radical. Competent management is their goal, and to be fair I was under no illusion they would do any different, and some competent management was at least a step in the right direction.
 
BobKowalski said:
I think we put it off through inertia. To break the pattern, you need to fundamentally rewire how the economy works, bearing in mind we are still enmeshed in other countries economies it is difficult to just unilaterally change direction and then you have the market reaction, interest rate and borrowing knock on effects which will impact on everyone especially mortgage holders. Politicians run scared of that. We saw how Truss and her fantasy budget went down.

But, I do think it is weird that we are being compelled to work longer when we were sold the idea of a three day week, early retirement and robots doing the heavy lifting - and flying cars - yet a lot of people have retired early, and working for many is more flexible, so perhaps it arrives through stealth and gradual change. A four day week trial would be interesting, universal basic income ditto - but then I would happily break the link with having to work.

I don’t disagree with your sentiment, but I see no issue pointing out that the way the system currently works and with an aging population then importing labour is the only obvious solution. To shift that you need major surgery and not kill the patient in the process.

This Govt will not go near anything radical. Competent management is their goal, and to be fair I was under no illusion they would do any different, and some competent management was at least a step in the right direction.
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Even as a non Labour voter I wasn't really hoping for anything worldly but maybe something a little radical. It's all very predictable and continuing on the same path.
Whilst saying all the parties are the same is somewhat untrue(I don't think the Labour party and the Tories will have ever been closer to each other though) I think long term they are all within a whisker of each other .
 
hilts said:
Even as a non Labour voter I wasn't really hoping for anything worldly but maybe something a little radical. It's all very predictable and continuing on the same path.
Whilst saying all the parties are the same is somewhat untrue(I don't think the Labour party and the Tories will have ever been closer to each other though) I think long term they are all within a whisker of each other .
Click to expand...

A bit more boldness would not have gone amiss. Not shooting themselves in the foot every five minutes I could have done with out as well
 
Brewster's millions said:
I’m afraid that you’re the one peddling a simplistic argument.

In fact you’ve done more than that. You’ve provided a clear example of how migration works, and indeed a system where cheap migrant labour is attracted by rising demand and in displaces the resident population in the process.

The normal pressures that would have developed around wages and staff shortages, which would have checked London’s growth and indeed a degree of the growth in London house prices, have been greatly diminished by migration. But, strangely, you’ve still refused to accept the role played by migration in this process.

And you clearly suggested that the blame sits with City workers and similar types, using Farage as an example of someone who has to take responsibility. So no need to any games on that front, and no need to pretend otherwise.
Click to expand...
How is the "resident population" "displaced" if it doesn't want to go?

If I get your third paragraph right, you think London should have more boarded-up high streets because the "resident population" wouldn't work for the wages that immigrants will.
 
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blueinsa said:
Welcome to the world of politics.

As for the rest of your spin doctor, scripted regurgitated post, listen to the mood music and the public. The vast majority are not feeling any sort of benefit. Too many are feeling even more pain from a government they never thought would hurt them financially.

Roll back on WFA, PIP immediately and start to tax those that can most afford it and not go after the lowest in society.

This is a Labour government in name only as things stand!
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I agree that the current labour government have made decisions that you wouldn't associate with typical labour. Many of the policies you would expect the Conservatives to make.

However, guess who is slagging them off for these decisions?
 
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