How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

inbetween said:
I don't believe that figure at all because it ignores reality. If the economy was suffering by £40bn per year then that's 1.6% of GDP today. Had we been in the EU then would we instead be seeing 3-4% growth instead of <2%? Not a single European economy is doing that so why would we do far better? It makes no sense.

There is an odd quandry on here, I read in the Labour thread of how Labour are doing so well to grow the economy and yet meanwhile in this thread we're apparently suffering and collapsing due to Brexit. Which is it?

What is the explanation for the graph below? Where is Brexit? The reality is Brexit made us worse off yes, however within the economic figures at least it's barely noticeable. This is not the story that was given by many who said that the entire country would collapse because it hasn't.

f0ecbb80-d4ed-4cb7-a86e-fbd9d8b351be.png
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Mate - with respect....................

You appear to me to be one of the (relatively) few posters on this forum that can post with real objectivity and not be totally biased and 'agenda driven'

However. I suggest that you recognise this thread/subject for what it is - a group therapy chamber for those individuals that simply cannot move on - there is sooooo much biased and blinkered bollocks posted to try and prove that Brexit = the end of the world and, TBF - it helps the group feel better about their obsession.

I suggest that you just recognise that having to go through standard processes to enter other European countries - just like you would for the ROW - is a fucking major issue

And certainly just forget that there is only one trading block in the world that requires membership to mean handing over control over trade policy, environmental policy, financial markets, agricultural policy, fisheries policy, digital markets, data privacy, artificial intelligence, labour market policy, telecoms, critical infrastructure, security, competition policy, some aspects of foreign policy and many others to an unelected body.

No other 'trading group' demands full political and fiscal integration

No mate - this is an echo chamber and, I suggest, you need to leave the needy to have their group hug in peace and not introduce facts

Mostly - remember that anyone that voted to leave did so because they are simply thick racist cunts and do not understand such strategic matters (although you might be tempted to think just which group are the ones that don't understand)
 
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inbetween said:
I don't believe that figure at all because it ignores reality. If the economy was suffering by £40bn per year then that's 1.6% of GDP today. Had we been in the EU then would we instead be seeing 3-4% growth instead of <2%? Not a single European economy is doing that so why would we do far better? It makes no sense.

There is an odd quandry on here, I read in the Labour thread of how Labour are doing so well to grow the economy and yet meanwhile in this thread we're apparently suffering and collapsing due to Brexit. Which is it?

What is the explanation for the graph below? Where is Brexit? The reality is Brexit made us worse off yes, however within the economic figures at least it's barely noticeable. This is not the story that was given by many who said that the entire country would collapse because it hasn't.

f0ecbb80-d4ed-4cb7-a86e-fbd9d8b351be.png
Click to expand...
I too was surprised with the figure on tax. Maybe you should have a listen. It was on LBC yesterday morning.
 
Oldham Exile said:
Mate - with respect....................

You appear to me to be one of the (relatively) few posters on this forum that can post with real objectivity and not be totally biased and 'agenda driven'

However. I suggest that you recognise this thread/subject for what it is - a group therapy chamber for those individuals that simply cannot move on - there is sooooo much biased and blinkered bollocks posted to try and prove that Brexit = the end of the world and, TBF - it helps the group feel better about their obsession.

I suggest that you just recognise that having to go through standard processes to enter other European countries - just like you would for the ROW - is a fucking major issue

And certainly just forget that there is only one trading block in the world that requires membership to mean handing over control over trade policy, environmental policy, financial markets, agricultural policy, fisheries policy, digital markets, data privacy, artificial intelligence, labour market policy, telecoms, critical infrastructure, security, competition policy, some aspects of foreign policy and many others to an unelected body.

No other 'trading group' demands full political and fiscal integration

No mate - this is an echo chamber and, I suggest, you need to leave the needy to have their group hug in peace and not introduce facts

Mostly - remember that anyone that voted to leave did so because they are simply thick racist cunts and no understand such strategic matters (although you might be tempted to think just which group are the ones that don't understand)
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An interesting post but full of holes of which I can only be bothered to point out one highlighted above:

How were we ever integrated both politically and fiscally? At present, a third of member states have not adopted the Euro for one reason or another so nor are they.
 
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BrianW said:
Brexit, for its believers, is not a political or economic matter that you can judge by its success or failure. It's a religion, an end in itself. Therefore, you could prove, conclusively, that Brexit has made us worse off, and they still would not care.

They are a cult. The equivalent of Rags who keep saying 'twenty times' even though they know their team is shit.
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Couldn't agree more. It was an opportunity for nationalist showboating, and hasn't afforded us a single qualitative benefit. Incidentally, when you ask for proof of a benefit, those chest thumpers go all quiet.
 
hampshireblue said:
An interesting post but full of holes of which I can only be bothered to point out one highlighted above:

How were we ever integrated both politically and fiscally? At present, a third of member states have not adopted the Euro for one reason or another so nor are they.
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Oh - fuck - is that a serious reply

I think so - so no more needs to be said - dreamer

But to help - the 'trajectory' and intent of the EU was crystal clear - TBF they did not mask it and set out clearly in their strategy documents that full fiscal an political integration was to be secured - did you read any of those documents? I'm guessing not - but - hey - carry on banging on about blue/black passports. Or perhaps do some research to make yourself better informed

Do you remember the TCE - 2004 - and what happened after it didn't get through..............??

I'm guessing not - but go google
 
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Oldham Exile said:
Oh - fuck - is that a serious reply

I think so - so no more needs to be said - dreamer

But to help - the 'trajectory' and intent of the EU was crystal clear - TBF they did not mask it and set out clearly in their strategy documents that full fiscal an political integration was to be secured - did you read any of those documents? I'm guessing not - but - hey - carry on banging on about blue/black passports. Or perhaps do some research to make yourself better informed

Do you remember the TCE - 2004 - and what happened after it didn't get through..............??

I'm guessing not - but go google
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Yes it’s serious as it’s all factual. I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned the colour of my passport in anything other than a piss take manner, if that. I’ll do as much research as you clearly haven’t or you wouldn’t have missed a third of the EU who are still fiscally independent- as we were.

I’m sure you’ll fill us all in on the aftermath of the TCE.

Oh, and there’s no need to get so angry when challenged.
 
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yerwot? said:
the US used Trident as a trump card to take over Diego Garcia, the way our govt went about it was and still is a fucking disgrace; normal for the CIA, a new low for UK "democracy". Following Simon Winchesters book there was a brief period of articles in the media, with very few details of how the Chargossians were forced onto ships and deported for "medical reasons", despite having british passports, then abandoned, 1200 miles away. Successive governments kept a lid on this invoking "national security issues" blah blah. Arse-covering more like.....
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The shocking thing about Diego Garcia is the number of people who object to redressing Britain's latest bit of ethnic cleansing. Maybe in the 18th century they'd be in the "what's wrong with slave trading?" lobby.
 
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Vic said:
If I read stats right, that would mean that newer entrants to the EU do well out of being in the EU, to the extent of eventually becoming net contributors.
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Interesting thought. Some may well do. But the fact is their economies are very different to the UKs.
 
BlueAnorak said:
What's the EU average?
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What's the relevance of this question? It's the UK we are taking about and it is entirely appropriate to compare it to countries in the EU of similar economic standing surely?

If you wanted to, you could compare the UK to Romania. Romania has experienced very high growth since joining the EU, but it is in a very different place economically to the UK, I am sure you understand this dont you?

Therefore it is a completely irrelevant comparison.
 
hampshireblue said:
Yes it’s serious as it’s all factual. I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned the colour of my passport in anything other than a piss take manner, if that. I’ll do as much research as you clearly haven’t or you wouldn’t have missed a third of the EU who are still fiscally independent- as we were.

I’m sure you’ll fill us all in on the aftermath of the TCE.

Oh, and there’s no need to get so angry when challenged.
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Bloviators will always bloviate. It’s what they do. Pointless getting into a discussion with them because they continue to spout absolute bollocks as fact.
 
hampshireblue said:
An interesting post but full of holes of which I can only be bothered to point out one highlighted above:

How were we ever integrated both politically and fiscally? At present, a third of member states have not adopted the Euro for one reason or another so nor are they.
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Maths fail.
7 out of 27 is not a third.
 
hampshireblue said:
I too was surprised with the figure on tax. Maybe you should have a listen. It was on LBC yesterday morning.
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It makes no sense to me and I only trust real world data and economists who use real data. The real world data does not show a £40bn black hole in the economy due to Brexit. The tax pot doesn't even account for Brexit specifically so to prove it at all you're already introducing bias because you're setting out to get a certain result.

Ask yourself how many economists are sounding an alarm about the £110bn that is spent on national debt interest repayments? Nobody is arsed. It's like Labour bleating on about their £20bn black hole which is actually just a small hole inside a gigantic hole because we borrow £130bn per year more than we take in tax, it's disingenous.

Forgive me if I don't trust a single thing that anybody says on this, it's wide open to bias and nobody on here ever challenges the real world data because for them it gives the wrong result. Instead they quote anything they can google which disproves it. Usually they quote losses in trade whilst simultaneously glossing over service growth which offsets those losses.

Everyone said that there would be an apocalypse which is lucky because we actually have real world data for real economic apocalypse's caused by COVID or the 2008 crash. Where is the equivalent for Brexit on the graph below? You can see COVID, you can see the 2008 crash, you cannot see Brexit. Surely a £40bn difference (1.6% of GDP!) would be quite obvious?

chartimage
 
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inbetween said:
It makes no sense to me and I only trust real world data and economists who use real data. The real world data does not show a £40bn black hole in the economy due to Brexit. The tax pot doesn't even account for Brexit specifically so to prove it at all you're already introducing bias because you're setting out to get a certain result.

Ask yourself how many economists are sounding an alarm about the £110bn that is spent on national debt interest repayments? Nobody is arsed. It's like Labour bleating on about their £20bn black hole which is actually just a small hole inside a gigantic hole because we borrow £130bn per year more than we take in tax, it's disingenous.

Forgive me if I don't trust a single thing that anybody says on this, it's wide open to bias and nobody on here ever challenges the real world data because for them it gives the wrong result. Instead they quote anything they can google which disproves it. Usually they quote losses in trade whilst simultaneously glossing over service growth which offsets those losses.

Everyone said that there would be an apocalypse which is lucky because we actually have real world data for real economic apocalypse's caused by COVID or the 2008 crash. Where is the equivalent for Brexit on the graph below? You can see COVID, you can see the 2008 crash, you cannot see Brexit. Surely a £40bn difference (1.6% of GDP!) would be quite obvious?

chartimage
Click to expand...
I think that sums up this thread very well, people have convinced themselves of this economic black hole caused by Brexit and look for anything to prove such a thing. Some economists do the same, but seemingly ignore the real data letting their bias set the agenda.

Without a doubt there are downsides to being outside the EU, but GDP growth and the economy should not be included as they have not noticeably been affected.
 
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