The Labour Government

[Vic]

The hard truth about heat pumps:
:
Air-source heat pumps typically cost £10,000–£15,000 installed.

Ground-source heat pumps can exceed £20,000–£30,000.

Even with government grants like the Boiler Upgrade Scheme (£7,500), many households still face a multi-thousand-pound shortfall.

The annual savings on energy bills are often modest — £200–£400 per year at best, and sometimes none at all depending on electricity vs gas prices and insulation quality.

Lifespan of a heat pump is around 15–20 years, so unless energy prices change dramatically or installation costs fall sharply, the system won’t pay for itself in that time. And then you need another one.

The break-even argument is largely academic for most people:
Even optimistic government or industry scenarios put the payback period at 20+ years, which exceeds the product's lifetime and assumes consistent performance and no expensive repairs.

And regards the £7,500 subsidy, that is just tax taken off some people and given to other people. The cost to the UK remains £7,500 higher per heat pump.

And without mass adoption (near 100%) of households changing to heat pumps, we cannot achieve net zero, unless other industries go lower than zero. Like electric HGVs and electric passenger aircraft. No, I haven't see any of those either. It's all one enormous con.

Obviously what we need is a nationalised Great British Heat Pumps to cut out the profit on installing a unit whose components cost less than the £7500 grant.

 

[Hertzblue]

Now here’s a random thought.

It is a feature of capitalism that it evolves and adapts. From horse power to steam power to internal combustion. From candlelight to gas light to electric light.

Each step eliminates an industry and creates others in its place. Without that constant change, that need to eke out a competitive edge, there is no innovation and no progress.

The fight to maintain fossil fuels is a fight to freeze progress and is anti-capitalist. The far right of politics is seemingly engaged in this anti-progress, anti-capitalism and engaged to the point where they have become somewhat unhinged.

Personally, I think it’s one of the reasons why the Tory Party has lost its way. It’s very reason for being was pro business, pro trade and now it is anti the things it once held dear. The sad thing (or not depending on your viewpoint) is the Tory Party and its supporters don’t even realise it.

It's not random , it's just misguided.
You talk as if anyone here is arguing that it is a binary choice. Renewables or fossil fuels, good v bad, that is simply not the case.
For instance both @Damocles and @Chippy_boy both made really good points in their respective posts and I personally agree with both on a lot of points. I don't think anyone is " fighting to maintain fossil fuels" only to assert that to pursue our current net zero aims is economic suicide, we are destroying our industries and livelihoods unnecessarily when we responsible for so little of the worlds emissions.
China has a balanced view , we should follow the same pragmatic approach.
As for the philosophical anti- progress anti capitalist stuff - you are reading too much into it .

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Are you serious ?

You mean those fossil fuels that propelled the Industrial Revolution , enabled billions of people to escape poverty, starvation, drudgery and ignorance.Essentially gave us the lives we enjoy now as opposed to peasantry.
Is it any wonder we are addicted?
Or we you rather give it all up for a life in the fields ?
Damn those capitalists !

Lol. The words there are ‘Gave us’, we are no longer in that era. Nobody is making a ‘revolution’ anymore, just the rich and powerful making even more money than they did before.

That’s why your energy bill is so extortionate, making even more money on your credit.

Time for change ;-)

 

[BobKowalski]

It's not random , it's just misguided.
You talk as if anyone here is arguing that it is a binary choice. Renewables or fossil fuels, good v bad, that is simply not the case.
For instance both @Damocles and @Chippy_boy both made really good points in their respective posts and I personally agree with both on a lot of points. I don't think anyone is " fighting to maintain fossil fuels" only to assert that to pursue our current net zero aims is economic suicide, we are destroying our industries and livelihoods unnecessarily when we responsible for so little of the worlds emissions.
China has a balanced view , we should follow the same pragmatic approach.
As for the philosophical anti- progress anti capitalist stuff - you are reading too much into it .

We are making it a binary choice because politics dictates we make it a binary choice. People oppose renewable energy sources because they oppose the science or the concept of climate change.

In reality, cleaner energy and renewable energy makes perfect sense irrespective of climate change, but people do not see that because they have a fixed view that climate change is a hoax so renewable energy is some bizarre conspiracy or something.

Renewable energy is simply energy from a source that doesn’t run out. Sun and wind. That’s it. There is no great mystery nor giant conspiracy. It’s clean, it’s abundant and a lot of people hate it - invariably on the right of politics. Whether it’s net zero targets, clean air zones, EV cars or solar panels or whatever there is never ending stream of donkeys braying that they don’t like it for reasons so stupid you marvel that they actually voiced them.

Finally, the idea that this Govt is so dogmatic that it won’t let targets slide or ditch them altogether depending on events or circumstances is ludicrous.

 

[metalblue]

yep its now 28 days statutory paid in the UK - something that the Employments Rights Bill 2024 protects and which workers friends Reform Ltd and a lot of Tory MP's voted against in Parliament

Huh? 28 day entitlement has nothing to do with the ER bill. It’s been law for many years now, the tories put it as a single entitlement start of last year but it was only merging the 4 weeks EU plus the extra 1.6 under UK law into one statutory entitlement post Brexit.

Or are you trying to give the current government credit for not removing something we already had in the new bill?

 

[Hertzblue]

We are making it a binary choice because politics dictates we make it a binary choice. People oppose renewable energy sources because they oppose the science or the concept of climate change.

In reality, cleaner energy and renewable energy makes perfect sense irrespective of climate change, but people do not see that because they have a fixed view that climate change is a hoax so renewable energy is some bizarre conspiracy or something.

Renewable energy is simply energy from a source that doesn’t run out. Sun and wind. That’s it. There is no great mystery nor giant conspiracy. It’s clean, it’s abundant and a lot of people hate it - invariably on the right of politics. Whether it’s net zero targets, clean air zones, EV cars or solar panels or whatever there is never ending stream of donkeys braying that they don’t like it for reasons so stupid you marvel that they actually voiced them.

Finally, the idea that this Govt is so dogmatic that it won’t let targets slide or ditch them altogether depending on events or circumstances is ludicrous.

These people who are making it a binary choice - are they with you in the room now Bob ?

 

[hilts]

We are making it a binary choice because politics dictates we make it a binary choice. People oppose renewable energy sources because they oppose the science or the concept of climate change.

In reality, cleaner energy and renewable energy makes perfect sense irrespective of climate change, but people do not see that because they have a fixed view that climate change is a hoax so renewable energy is some bizarre conspiracy or something.

Renewable energy is simply energy from a source that doesn’t run out. Sun and wind. That’s it. There is no great mystery nor giant conspiracy. It’s clean, it’s abundant and a lot of people hate it - invariably on the right of politics. Whether it’s net zero targets, clean air zones, EV cars or solar panels or whatever there is never ending stream of donkeys braying that they don’t like it for reasons so stupid you marvel that they actually voiced them.

Finally, the idea that this Govt is so dogmatic that it won’t let targets slide or ditch them altogether depending on events or circumstances is ludicrous.

It's pretty much the same people that at first denied it was happening, then it was happening but it wasn't man made, then it was man made but its not as serious as its being made out, then it was serious but we can't do anything about it, then we can do something about.it but someone else should sort it, then its we could sort it a bit but let's step back because it costs too much and we are a bit skint.
Obstacles for decades and without any kind of self awareness that people like them have slowed down progress, every step is a fucking battle, every protest in frustration is met with selfish arseholes complaining about being late for work and other such trivial shit.
No matter how this goes and it ain't gonna be good just comfort yourselves that you made it worse than it needed to be. If you're still around and are asked by a grandkid or someone else just be honest.
You were more concerned about not being inconvenienced, your bank balance and the Beemer was to die for.

Cunts, that is all.

 

[Hertzblue]

Lol. The words there are ‘Gave us’, we are no longer in that era. Nobody is making a ‘revolution’ anymore, just the rich and powerful making even more money than they did before.

That’s why your energy bill is so extortionate, making even more money on your credit.

Time for change ;-)

Here's me thinking it was our reliance on imported gas and the impact of the war in Ukraine and Green levies when all along it was those damn capitalists .

 

[Chippy_boy]

Obviously what we need is a nationalised Great British Heat Pumps to cut out the profit on installing a unit whose components cost less than the £7500 grant.

Ripping all your central heating pipes out, installing new, redecorating and installing new radiators is non-trivial, profit or no profit.

Also since when did the government demonstrate they were more efficient and cost effective at doing anything whatsoever? Let alone heat pump installations.

 

[Chippy_boy]

No idea. I’m not a socialist.

You bloody well are.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Now here’s a random thought.

It is a feature of capitalism that it evolves and adapts. From horse power to steam power to internal combustion. From candlelight to gas light to electric light.

Each step eliminates an industry and creates others in its place. Without that constant change, that need to eke out a competitive edge, there is no innovation and no progress.

The fight to maintain fossil fuels is a fight to freeze progress and is anti-capitalist. The far right of politics is seemingly engaged in this anti-progress, anti-capitalism and engaged to the point where they have become somewhat unhinged.

Personally, I think it’s one of the reasons why the Tory Party has lost its way. It’s very reason for being was pro business, pro trade and now it is anti the things it once held dear. The sad thing (or not depending on your viewpoint) is the Tory Party and its supporters don’t even realise it.

The Tory Party is not anti green technology. Merely skeptical about an arbitrary and very damaging 2050 target.

 

[BobKowalski]

You bloody well are.

Nope. Use to be broker in the City and self employed from age forty until I (sort of) retired.

Wide braces, greed is good and champers all round, baby.

 

[Chippy_boy]

For starters, my energy bill is lower.

It would seem self evident that energy produced in the UK by renewables/nuclear power will be less susceptible to events in other countries- oil and gas supply/price fluctuations, wars, etc. No one is invading anyone for their solar or wind farm.

We have much better air quality than we used to have. Regulations on car emissions, more efficient cars, cleaner fuel, congestion zones, clean air zones etc. All things we habitually rail against (and still do) as costing too much and yet here we are with cleaner air and the economy still surviving. If there are problems with new tech then the process begins of finding a solution as we always do. Progress is a constant, not a finite destination. This applies to rubber particles or battery production.

So let’s talk battery production where despite the damage, the case for EV still trumps ICE.

"The results were clearer than we thought, actually," says Georg Bieker, with the International Council on Clean Transportation, who authored one of those reports. (This is the group that busted Volkswagen for cheating on its emissions tests. Holding industries accountable for whether they're actually reducing emissions is the ICCT's whole thing.). Building a battery is an environmental cost that's paid once. Burning gasoline is a cost that's paid again, and again, and again.’

Battery production and methods will evolve. The pursuit for new tech stimulates innovation and solutions to problems. Just as we did with ICE. Cleaner fuels, more efficient cars, etc.

The aesthetic of solar panels is a personal issue. I prefer them to wind turbines. If a farmer is happy to stick panels in a field and still allow it for pasture than I’m really not seeing a problem.

Personally, I don’t think your argument stands up. I’m not even sure it’s an argument more ‘I hate new stuff coz reasons.’

And I don't think you have an argument. It's better because it isn't yet but it will be, is not an argument. You haven't given any reason why it will even be better when the issues are fixed. The only tenuous one is energy security but that doesn't stand up because we have energy security with our own oil and gas, were we to use it.

 

[BobKowalski]

These people who are making it a binary choice - are they with you in the room now Bob ?

I’m alone.

If your next question is to ask what colour boxers I am wearing then I have to say you are absolutely nailing this ‘creepy fucker on the internet’ impression.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Nope. Use to be broker in the City and self employed from age forty until I (sort of) retired.

Wide braces, greed is good and champers all round, baby.

Course you were. I remember you at those Tory Party rallies,waving the blue flag and supporting Margaret.

 

[Hertzblue]

No idea. I’m not a socialist.

I know you like the centre ground but you have seemed to tack a bit leftwards of late .

 

[Chippy_boy]

I know you like the centre ground but you have seemed to tack a bit leftwards of late .

Hahahaha. You think?

 

[Hertzblue]

Labour Party mouthpiece The Mirror had some shocking polling for Starmer for his anniversary today..

Are you better off ?




The worst of all..
Is the country on the right track with Kier Starmer ?

Only 8 % of the poll think he is on the right track - a wasted year!

Is it clear what Kier Starmer stands for and what his priorities are ?



How much do you think Kier Starmer shares your values ?




Labour MP's must surely be looking for a change in the leadership.
They are done for otherwise.

 

[Don Karleone]

Please don't put this version of the Labour party in with "the left". Own your shit.

 

[BobKowalski]

Course you were. I remember you at those Tory Party rallies,waving the blue flag and supporting Margaret.

I’m pro free trade, pro Europe, pro immigration, no borders, capitalist. I also believe in a strong welfare state and health service and I am very liberal on social issues.

To be honest, I thought my views were pretty clear from my posts.