Electric cars

[bugsyblue]

Pushing things on people only ends up making people resentful, the rush to 2030 it’s only 4 1/2 years away! Just make EVs more desirable, offer them at a lower price than there ICE counterparts, try and reduce the cost of installing a charger or if you are buying new make it free as part of the deal (I know they’ll just put it on the price of the car) the price secondhand of the, now is mad, Teslas are dirt cheap for what you get, pick a secondhand EV up use it for 5 years get rid by then things will have vastly moved on. We kept our diesel for 13 years, still doing ok but little niggles and the fact we only ever do short trips in it we were going to get a run around an EV seemed a no brainer.

You're absolutely right that pushing things on people only makes them resentful BUT governments have to do something to hit these CO2 targets and there's no way they can do that and keep everyone happy. EVs are already financially subsidised in various forms. Governments can't afford to offer more incentives and the car manufactures still want to make a profit so it's a tricky situation.

 

[bugsyblue]

Firstly if they move the goal posts again, it will be too late for much of the UK ice car industry, im not a manufacturing expert, but im guessing it takes years to start or wind down a production line. Milleband is completely out of his depth, why change the goal posts again and then say the car industry needs stability?? Some European countries are banning ice in 2030 some in 2035.

Second point is we shall have to agree to dissagree on the forcing people to buy EVs, I see it no other way. They didn't have to ban horses in the early 1900s to get people to by a motorcade. Why are they having to ban ices to get people to buy evs. If they were as good as you make out and suited everyone, they would sell themselves. The fact is they dont!

You can't compare the transition from horses to cars to petrol to electric... it's a different situation. And in a way what's driving the push into EV is different, it's not to help people travel more efficiently, it's to help the planet. However, there's some similarities you've missed in your horse to car comparison!

At first, cars were only affordable for the upper class. Eventually, as they managed to improve technology and mass produce they became much cheaper. It's the same situation with EVs.China has just manufactured a new SUV that can do 600 miles or something and charges in 9 minutes! That's a game changer. Once that improves more and batteries become cheaper and more efficient then you'll start to see £15-20k EVs .

 

[I'm With Stupid]

There are 800kW public chargers planned which could charge an average sized EV battery in less than 5 minutes so the time to charge will become less of a problem too. For anybody who needs to drive far in one go then they can always just buy a higher capacity battery. Some EV models on offer can push 500 miles range already.

I'm just imagining that though. How long does it currently take to fill a car? 30 seconds? A couple of minutes if you go into the shop? And you still get queues at times. If everyone now takes 5 to 10 times longer, what effect does that have on queues?

I was about to say that the way that our towns and cities are built don't allow for huge swathes of society to charge at home either. But I researched it, and I was surprised to see that around 65% of UK households have off-street parking. Maybe that says more about where I grew up. But still, for that other 35%, it's going to be difficult to figure out a solution that doesn't involve either constantly having to go out to charge, or installing masses of charge points in, let's face it, many of the poorest neighbourhoods in a town.

 

[bugsyblue]

I'm just imagining that though. How long does it currently take to fill a car? 30 seconds? A couple of minutes if you go into the shop? And you still get queues at times. If everyone now takes 5 to 10 times longer, what effect does that have on queues?

I was about to say that the way that our towns and cities are built don't allow for huge swathes of society to charge at home either. But I researched it, and I was surprised to see that around 65% of UK households have off-street parking. Maybe that says more about where I grew up. But still, for that other 35%, it's going to be difficult to figure out a solution that doesn't involve either constantly having to go out to charge, or installing masses of charge points in, let's face it, many of the poorest neighbourhoods in a town.

They have charging points in most of the lampposts in London now so when you park in the street you can just connect to the lamppost. I've had an EV for 4 years and only once had an issue and that was driving back from Manchester on Easter Monday. The roads were mad busy and I had to queue to get a charger at the services. Apart from that, never had an issue.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

You can't compare the transition from horses to cars to petrol to electric... it's a different situation. And in a way what's driving the push into EV is different, it's not to help people travel more efficiently, it's to help the planet. However, there's some similarities you've missed in your horse to car comparison!

At first, cars were only affordable for the upper class. Eventually, as they managed to improve technology and mass produce they became much cheaper. It's the same situation with EVs.China has just manufactured a new SUV that can do 600 miles or something and charges in 9 minutes! That's a game changer. Once that improves more and batteries become cheaper and more efficient then you'll start to see £15-20k EVs .

The BYD Dolphin is already less than 20k where I live. I assume that's the starting price, but they're claiming 400km range (which is presumably a higher-range model that costs more).

 

[I'm With Stupid]

They have charging points in most of the lampposts in London now so when you park in the street you can just connect to the lamppost. I've had an EV for 4 years and only once had an issue and that was driving back from Manchester on Easter Monday. The roads were mad busy and I had to queue to get a charger at the services. Apart from that, never had an issue.

They would have that in that there London.

But my point about queuing was more about if you switch everyone to an electric car. They're currently still a niche product, so it's easy to not get stuck in a queue.

 

[bugsyblue]

They would have that in that there London.

But my point about queuing was more about if you switch everyone to an electric car. They're currently still a niche product, so it's easy to not get stuck in a queue.

Well the infrastructure needs to grow with the demand of course. By the time everyone has an EV the charging time will most likely be the same as with petrol so I can't see it being an issue. Petrols stations will become charging banks.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

You can't compare the transition from horses to cars to petrol to electric... it's a different situation. And in a way what's driving the push into EV is different, it's not to help people travel more efficiently, it's to help the planet. However, there's some similarities you've missed in your horse to car comparison!

At first, cars were only affordable for the upper class. Eventually, as they managed to improve technology and mass produce they became much cheaper. It's the same situation with EVs.China has just manufactured a new SUV that can do 600 miles or something and charges in 9 minutes! That's a game changer. Once that improves more and batteries become cheaper and more efficient then you'll start to see £15-20k EVs .

You are conflicting desire and reason ?

I compared the two is we have lots of posters on here telling everyone daily how EVs are so much better than ICE cars, yet the uptake is very slow and the government are forcing people to buy them by taking away the alternative. I get that motorcars were only available to the richest people, but you can't say the same with evs now.
There is currently no desire from the majority to change to an ev, despite many on here telling everyone that they are cheaper to buy (especially second hand) and cheaper to run.


You compare that to 120 years ago when people couldn't wait to buy a motor car, no inducements or bans were required, the desire was huge. Put it this way if evs were that good why are the government banning ices, by default they wouldn't need to if evs were much better would they?

The reason people need to move to evs is a separate debate. I understand and agree with the reason, just not necessarily the timescales being imposed.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Well the infrastructure needs to grow with the demand of course. By the time everyone has an EV the charging time will most likely be the same as with petrol so I can't see it being an issue. Petrols stations will become charging banks.

That's not as easy as you think, currently national grid infrastructure and substations limit where charging stations can be placed. Significant upgrades are required across the whole network.

 

[Bournemouth Blue]

I recently entered my 8th decade and only drive 3k miles a year at most these days, so my Nissan (a low emission job costing £21 in road tax per year) will hopefully mean I never need the hassle of buying an EV. EVs aren’t quite as green as many people realise, they are heavier and therefore cause more road and tyre damage, most of the lithium for the batteries is shipped from the other side of the World, and the government’s net zero rush means our electricity is the most expensive in the World. The cost of installing a domestic charging point, the lifespan of batteries, not to mention the disposal and replacement, are the reasons why I will not buy an EV.

 

[bugsyblue]

You are conflicting desire and reason ?

I compared the two is we have lots of posters on here telling everyone daily how EVs are so much better than ICE cars, yet the uptake is very slow and the government are forcing people to buy them by taking away the alternative. I get that motorcars were only available to the richest people, but you can't say the same with evs now.
There is currently no desire from the majority to change to an ev, despite many on here telling everyone that they are cheaper to buy (especially second hand) and cheaper to run.


You compare that to 120 years ago when people couldn't wait to buy a motor car, no inducements or bans were required, the desire was huge. Put it this way if evs were that good why are the government banning ices, by default they wouldn't need to if evs were much better would they?

The reason people need to move to evs is a separate debate. I understand and agree with the reason, just not necessarily the timescales being imposed.

Well, a car is a massive step up from a horse. Hence why everyone would want one. An ev is a step up from petrol (my opinion) but it obviously isn’t radically different! And posters who are saying they are cheaper overall are wrong. If low cost is the most importing thing to you then spec equivilant petrol is better.

In a few years though I believe they will outperform petrol in all areas.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Well, a car is a massive step up from a horse. Hence why everyone would want one. An ev is a step up from petrol (my opinion) but it obviously isn’t radically different! And posters who are saying they are cheaper overall are wrong. If low cost is the most importing thing to you then spec equivilant petrol is better.

In a few years though I believe they will outperform petrol in all areas.

My brother-in-law law sells second hand cars at a big dealership in the east Midlands. He's been doing this for 30 years so knows a thing or two about the industry.

So when he tells me as a dealership, they just dont want ev part exs as the public dont want them I tend to believe him.

And if you dont believe me, surely the proof of the pudding is the second hand price of evs, they currently depreciate much faster than an ICE.

And that's despite people knowing they are going to have to own one sooner of later!

I get it that some people love them, you do. But the fact is currently the majority dont want them for a variety of reasons. Anyway I have some painting to do. Good debating with you.

 

[Blue Maverick]

Well the infrastructure needs to grow with the demand of course. By the time everyone has an EV the charging time will most likely be the same as with petrol so I can't see it being an issue. Petrols stations will become charging banks.

It will be wireless by then as well

 

[fulabeer]

Just timed my Diesel refueling time. The car already had quarter of a tank. From entering the forecourt to leaving took exactly 10 minutes. I paid at the pump and didn't have to queue. Cost £45

Going on a 500 round trip tomorrow that i did last week in the EV. I stopped once each way last week to recharge the car. Each stop took 30 mins. I started with a full battery which cost around £5 from my home charger using off peak rates. Each stop was after driving for around 2.5 hours. On each occasion, the car had exceeded my target charge of 80%. This was because we used the toilets first. Then queued for food and then ate the food.

The cost for both extra "Rapid" charges came to £62 as we just used the service station chargers. We could have saved if we went off the motorway. So the total was £67. The car was still showing 44 miles left.
If a had to rapid charge at the start, the diesel would be cheaper. (unless i shopped around for cheaper charging etc)

The diesel costs around £60 to fill at £1.30 a litre (Costco). The range is showing at 480 miles. That will rise significantly once on the motorway. So i fully expect to be able to do the trip on the same tank.
I might be a bit quicker though. Not because i don't have to recharge. More because i know i will go a bit faster in the diesel. It doesn't seem as sensitive to the slightly faster speed economy wise.

So no real cost or time difference apparently. I will know for sure tomorrow.

The weather isn't looking great tomorrow for a Manchester to South Downs National park and back (Duke of Edinburgh GOLD for my son etc)

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Well the infrastructure needs to grow with the demand of course. By the time everyone has an EV the charging time will most likely be the same as with petrol so I can't see it being an issue. Petrols stations will become charging banks.

I reckon physics might have something to say about that. I can't imagine a situation where charging a battery will ever be as fast as pumping a bunch of liquid into a tank. They'll improve it, sure, but with my layman's knowledge of batteries, I feel like it's always going to be a fair bit slower.

 

[East Level 2]

I understand that, but I do question the wisdom of forcing buyers and manufacturers down the ev route ahead of other countries.

I can see little gain for the planet as a whole but significant detriment to the UK car industry. We have already seen factories shut in the UK due to the fines for selling ICE vehicles levied by the government.

The electricity has to be produced somewhere so coal or gas fired power stations are likely to produce as much pollution as ICE cars. Obviously nuclear and renewables will help. - The areas that might benefit from reduced pollution are city centres.
I'd be interested if all lamp posts had charging connections but it's little use if the lamp posts are across the pavement rather than by the kerb.

 

[Alvin-blue-qhd]

The electricity has to be produced somewhere so coal or gas fired power stations are likely to produce as much pollution as ICE cars. Obviously nuclear and renewables will help. - The areas that might benefit from reduced pollution are city centres.
I'd be interested if all lamp posts had charging connections but it's little use if the lamp posts are across the pavement rather than by the kerb.

Centralized large coal-fired plants are far more efficient than decentralized vehicle engines.

 

[bugsyblue]

My brother-in-law law sells second hand cars at a big dealership in the east Midlands. He's been doing this for 30 years so knows a thing or two about the industry.

So when he tells me as a dealership, they just dont want ev part exs as the public dont want them I tend to believe him.

And if you dont believe me, surely the proof of the pudding is the second hand price of evs, they currently depreciate much faster than an ICE.

And that's despite people knowing they are going to have to own one sooner of later!

I get it that some people love them, you do. But the fact is currently the majority dont want them for a variety of reasons. Anyway I have some painting to do. Good debating with you.

I

My brother-in-law law sells second hand cars at a big dealership in the east Midlands. He's been doing this for 30 years so knows a thing or two about the industry.

So when he tells me as a dealership, they just dont want ev part exs as the public dont want them I tend to believe him.

And if you dont believe me, surely the proof of the pudding is the second hand price of evs, they currently depreciate much faster than an ICE.

And that's despite people knowing they are going to have to own one sooner of later!

I get it that some people love them, you do. But the fact is currently the majority dont want them for a variety of reasons. Anyway I have some painting to do. Good debating with you.

I think using the second hand market as the basis for your assessment is a bit short sighted. There’s a number of reasons people don’t want to buy second hand EVs:

1) new EVs tend to come with 8 year battery warranty that is very attractive to buyers
2) the technology is developing quickly and most people are waiting for the next range of cars hitting the market in a couple of years
3) most people probably bought their first EVs over the last five years and I bet the majority of people buying EVs new are first time buyers. Therefore the second hand market isn’t really going to kick in for a few more years
4) Because the technology is developing quickly and new models keep significantly improving on old ones, older EVs really don’t hold their value. Once we nearer the peak of technology they will start to hold their value better thus boosting the second hand market

There’s some things I agree with you on and I do think overall demand has dropped the last year or two but I put that down more to the cost of living crisis than anything else. Plus some politics has influenced demand - look how sales of Tesla have tanked!

 

[bugsyblue]

I reckon physics might have something to say about that. I can't imagine a situation where charging a battery will ever be as fast as pumping a bunch of liquid into a tank. They'll improve it, sure, but with my layman's knowledge of batteries, I feel like it's always going to be a fair bit slower.

Have a read it this article. The Chinese have already got it down to 5 mins for 400 km. In five years time it’s not unlikely that will be at least halved.

Will we soon be able to charge electric cars in minutes?

Speedy new chargers from Chinese automaker BYD take just 5 minutes to restore 400 kilometres of an electric car’s range, but will they be widely used?

www.newscientist.com

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

I


I think using the second hand market as the basis for your assessment is a bit short sighted. There’s a number of reasons people don’t want to buy second hand EVs:

1) new EVs tend to come with 8 year battery warranty that is very attractive to buyers
2) the technology is developing quickly and most people are waiting for the next range of cars hitting the market in a couple of years
3) most people probably bought their first EVs over the last five years and I bet the majority of people buying EVs new are first time buyers. Therefore the second hand market isn’t really going to kick in for a few more years
4) Because the technology is developing quickly and new models keep significantly improving on old ones, older EVs really don’t hold their value. Once we nearer the peak of technology they will start to hold their value better thus boosting the second hand market

There’s some things I agree with you on and I do think overall demand has dropped the last year or two but I put that down more to the cost of living crisis than anything else. Plus some politics has influenced demand - look how sales of Tesla have tanked!

Sorry but that looks as if you are clutching at straws to me. New and second hand ev sales are still very poor compared to ICE cars. That's all you need to know about how popular they are.