Churchlawtonblue
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The deficit will be £32 billion (lost fuel duty and road tax ) from my understanding of the figures.
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Electric cars
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Churchlawtonblue
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I think we are all going to have to get used to paying much higher taxes to drive evs. There will be a £32billion pound deficit to somehow fill, I just can't see any government trying to hide or wanting to place that in general taxation.
Good debate by the way, but my final point is, if evs are so good, cheap and convenient for everybody if not most to use. Why are people not buying them? Only 1 in 10 people chose to buy an ev last year?
Our ancestors weren't forced to leave the hose and cart behind to buy a motorcar, so why are the Government forcing the population to buy evs ?
I think your understanding is wrong
but even if its not its 1.25% on income tax
I'm With Stupid
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To be fair, they're only tax free to encourage people to buy them, not because of some sort of emissions tax. They still clog the roads up like any other car and contribute to road wear that needs repairing (arguably more so with their higher weights), so it was always on the cards that they would be taxed like petrol cars eventually on anything beyond the fuel.
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I don't think they are forcing people to buy EV's. There is a ban on new petrol cars from 2030 but that will only happen in reality once it's feasible and hybrids will still be around until 2035. Each government only has a 5 year shelf life so it's unsurpising that certainly Labour won't really be bothered about it.
The market will take care of it either way because it's impossible for car manufacturers to make a profit by supplying two separate car markets. EV's are much easier to build because they have less moving parts and so are far easier to assemble. 50% of an EV cost goes on the battery so reducing battery costs will open up the market and then it will make no sense for manufacturers to make petrol cars at all.
The winner will be the better product and I just can't see how that won't be EV's for most people. The biggest barrier is cost and indeed logistical problems like charging at home but all of these will be solved eventually. Wouldn't they just turn petrol stations into rapid charging points? It would still be cheaper than petrol so it's still going to be a winner.
There are 800kW public chargers planned which could charge an average sized EV battery in less than 5 minutes so the time to charge will become less of a problem too. For anybody who needs to drive far in one go then they can always just buy a higher capacity battery. Some EV models on offer can push 500 miles range already.
Churchlawtonblue
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The above is a bit out of date.
Ons figures indicate £24.7billion raised in fuel duty in the year ending March 2025 and £7 billion in road tax.
Then you have to factor in VAT at 20%. I cant find a breakdown on that, but if fuel duty is 53p a lt. And that and Vat make up roughly 46 to 49% of the price of a lt, that's at least another £10billion in VAt that needs to be put somewhere.
So the likely figure that will need to be replaced when evs are phased out is going to around £42billion. This will have to go on evs somehow. I can't see any government putting this anywhere else.
I wonder why the Government, the previous or this one, has not mentioned this? Politicians and honesty!
Churchlawtonblue
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They most definitely are forcing people to buy evs. Stopping the sale of ICEs is forcing people and stopping the choice. Sorry but I am really struggling to see how this can be seen in any other way.
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Why the hostility?
The government has to replace revenue lost from fuel duty and VAT. This is already being discussed and the many ways to do this. The RAC recently got involved. They want a fair system for all drivers, and urged the government to think of ways of doing asap. The RAC suggested pay per mile for all vehicles. But it is costly to implement. And if it's a self reporting system, would be open to fraud and abuse. (clocking etc)
I would love to think enforced smart chargers was for anything other than to find a way to recover that lost revenue.
So you think they would ignore the ability to see how much a car has used to charge would be solely for the benefit of the energy industry? Really? Household smart meters already feed that info. So why do they suddenly need smart chargers?
Relying solely on users reporting mileage (as in pay per mile) would just lead to people doctoring the odometers. Road side cameras tracking mileage is way to expensive and would take time to implement.
Or they could leave the current fuel duty and VAT in place, and charge EV along the same lines, but taxed from public and private (smart) charger data. Like they do now for people using untaxed fuel, something similar could be used for people charging by other means.
I doubt they would want to announce this right now and have people refusing to have smart chargers installed.
Delusional? Nope, just not nieve...
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I agree. They have been doing that from the start.
They urged us all to swap petrol for diesel. Diesel was cheaper than petrol. And you got more mpg. Also we was told that soot isn't as harmful as petrol fumes.
Diesel prices then rose above petrol.
Then they decided diesel was the devils juice. And told everybody to swap back to petrol, and maybe a petrol hybrid.
Now they are saying electric is the right choice.
Road tax (excise duty) and fuel duty/VAT are all just forms of indirect taxation. So as one thing dies out, they just invent other ways to tax you. They were looking at tyre emissions as another way to tax you FFS! I tried driving without tyre rubber for a week to save the planet. My god was that noisy and i need new alloys now!
So yep, EV's will be paying in the future. Just not sure how.
Offhand, the Lucid Air does 512 miles. It actually recorded 749 miles in a controlled test creating a new world record. Megabucks, but they are out there.
There are several Chinese models also doing similar. Ranges will only improve year after year. By 2030, range shouldn't be an issue. Charge speeds are the new challenge people want reducing. China/S Korea are definitely leading the way there.
My EV does 280 officially. The next model up does 380 for not much more money. But it is very rare for us to do more than 60 miles a day.
I can have mine down to 220 in winter. Cold battery, Urban driving, heater/ heated seats and steering wheel etc.
Yet now the weather is hot, i can get it to 300 miles with careful 50/60 mph motorway driving. (six hours none stop at 50 mph)
However, that's not how i normally drive it. I'm mainly urban and just get to where in going as fast as safe, and charge as needed.
I do understand that EV's are not yet suitable for everybody and everybody's needs. But by the time ICE is no longer an option, they should be.
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yes delusional
everything you are suggesting has a massive cost implication and therefore will not be done, when you can just put 1% on income tax with no cost implication
Alvin-blue-qhd
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It sort of is a ban and sort of isn't because in reality they'll just move the goalposts. There is no chance of them banning petrol cars in 2030, I know it's set in stone at the moment but it'll get moved. No government wants to do it out of fear of being seen to fail on climate targets and it seems that Labour will be out in 4 years time.
The manufacturers are the ones who will enforce such a ban by stealth because eventually they will only make hybrids and then eventually they will only make EV's. The likes of Jaguar have already gone down that route and many others will follow because irrespective of the ban it doesn't make financial sense to do anything else.
They have already being do this to some degree for years with the Euro engine standards. These tests are already ridiculous because the manufacturers are allowed to heavily modify the cars for the test. If they need to cheat the test to pass after that then it's quite clear that the technology is at its end.
Pontypool Blue
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How about this car - less than Half the price of a merc claims 440 miles charge 30-80% in 17 minutes looks stunning and has 750 HP lol!I suppose the home charging tax issue is enforcement. How on earth are they going to be able to check how you charge your car. Its impossible.
As regards range, didnt you say yesterday that evs can already do 500miles ?
As far as I can tell most dont do even 400miles. The highest range I can see is for the Merc eqs which claims about 480miles, but in the real world the below is achievable. Am I missing something here, where are the cars that do this range, are they Chinese?
Mercedes-Benz EQS 450+ Review - GreenCarGuide.co.uk
The all-electric Mercedes-Benz EQS 450+ has a driving range of up to 453 miles and it can cover this distance with effortless performance and in supreme comfort.www.greencarguide.co.uk
Also, this car starts at £100k, so way beyond the reach of 99% of motorists.
The reality is the range of evs is literally miles off ICE cars. Even my V6 diesel Audi can do 600miles easily. Many smaller ICE and hybrid cars can do 700miles easily on a tank.
Eventually I will buy an ev car, so I am following developments and have some interest, but for the majority of motorists like me this will be decision that will be forced on us by the government and not one made by choice.
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Blue Maverick
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People are not buying due to the fear factor peddled and where they live (terraced houses) only yesterday in the news yesterday they were saying oh there are no chargers, that absolute bollocks download Zappa app and take a look there’s thousands. Range has vastly extended and battery life will go far beyond what most people do in ICE cars. We have just picked up a 4 year old one for £12k with 37k miles looks like new and costing in the loan and what we will save on fuel it’s costing us £100 a month! I’m not saying they aren’t without fault but like all other machines they are all open to breaking down.
Churchlawtonblue
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Firstly if they move the goal posts again, it will be too late for much of the UK ice car industry, im not a manufacturing expert, but im guessing it takes years to start or wind down a production line. Milleband is completely out of his depth, why change the goal posts again and then say the car industry needs stability?? Some European countries are banning ice in 2030 some in 2035.
Second point is we shall have to agree to dissagree on the forcing people to buy EVs, I see it no other way. They didn't have to ban horses in the early 1900s to get people to by a motorcade. Why are they having to ban ices to get people to buy evs. If they were as good as you make out and suited everyone, they would sell themselves. The fact is they dont!
Because they are better for the environment than petrol and we are trying to push an accelerated transition into cleaner energy?
I drive an EV, love it, but given the cost of the car I wouldn't say it's a cheaper alternative to petrol or even hybrid options. However the daily running is definitely cheaper. Once the technology improves and batteries become smaller and cheaper to manufacture then we'll see the cost of EVs drop. It's definitely the future but we are trying to push it onto everyone because of CO2 targets.
Blue Maverick
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Pushing things on people only ends up making people resentful, the rush to 2030 it’s only 4 1/2 years away! Just make EVs more desirable, offer them at a lower price than there ICE counterparts, try and reduce the cost of installing a charger or if you are buying new make it free as part of the deal (I know they’ll just put it on the price of the car) the price secondhand of the, now is mad, Teslas are dirt cheap for what you get, pick a secondhand EV up use it for 5 years get rid by then things will have vastly moved on. We kept our diesel for 13 years, still doing ok but little niggles and the fact we only ever do short trips in it we were going to get a run around an EV seemed a no brainer.
Churchlawtonblue
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I understand that, but I do question the wisdom of forcing buyers and manufacturers down the ev route ahead of other countries.
I can see little gain for the planet as a whole but significant detriment to the UK car industry. We have already seen factories shut in the UK due to the fines for selling ICE vehicles levied by the government.
I'm no expert but I imagine even tougher measures will have to be implemented if we are realistically going to halt global warming. Some of which aren't going to benefit people, certainly not financially. It's a complex balance though I know.
How much EVs really help mitigate against CO2 emissions I don't know but imagine cities without petrol cars! The pollution would massively drop. The air would be much cleaner. It's a world I do hope we eventually see (and I'm sure we will).