Assisted dying

stonerblue said:
Absolute fucking nonsense
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What you describe as such is a major part the case against the current bill and why it it very unlikely to become law.
It would be interesting to know why you choose to characterise this issue in this way. Here's a repeat of Sumption:

"The current bill contains a number of provisions designed to ensure that patients are not “pressured by any other person” into taking their own lives. The real problem, however, is not the pressure applied by “other persons”. It is assumptions which many old and ill people spontaneously make about the attitudes of the society around them. They are afraid of being an emotional or financial burden.
In a world where suicide is regarded as just another end of life choice, these unseen, unheard pressures are likely to increase. The question posed by the current bill cannot simply be whether we approve of assisted suicide. We must also ask how much risk to the genuinely vulnerable we are willing to accept in order to facilitate suicide by strong-minded, articulate individuals like Tony Nicklinson and Esther Rantzen."
 
johnny crossan said:
What you describe as such is a major part the case against the current bill and why it it very unlikely to become law.
It would be interesting to know why you choose to characterise this issue in this way. Here's a repeat of Sumption:

"The current bill contains a number of provisions designed to ensure that patients are not “pressured by any other person” into taking their own lives. The real problem, however, is not the pressure applied by “other persons”. It is assumptions which many old and ill people spontaneously make about the attitudes of the society around them. They are afraid of being an emotional or financial burden.
In a world where suicide is regarded as just another end of life choice, these unseen, unheard pressures are likely to increase. The question posed by the current bill cannot simply be whether we approve of assisted suicide. We must also ask how much risk to the genuinely vulnerable we are willing to accept in order to facilitate suicide by strong-minded, articulate individuals like Tony Nicklinson and Esther Rantzen."
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Firstly, under this bill, people who have been given 6 months to live would be eligible. Obviously they are extremely ill,probably bed bound,probably racked with pain and most definitely have nothing to look forward to. Why would a relative 'coerce' them to end their life sooner, rather than lasting out until they die naturally? What could be gained?
Secondly, would you be happy to have everything done for you by your partner/family? Spoon fed, washed and cleaned, shoppping, cooking, dressing, lifting in and out of bed etc etc. I'm guessing the answer is no, and thats nothing to do with the attitudes that others may have. It is a fundamental part of being an adult human.
 
johnny crossan said:
unusual use of words here, what lie and what was the other one(s)?

www.standard.co.uk

Majority of Britons want death penalty back, poll finds

The proportion of Brits supporting the death penalty for certain crimes has risen from 50 to 55 per cent
www.standard.co.uk www.standard.co.uk
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You said 70-80% of Brits want the death penalty back. That is a lie.

It's hovered between 45-55% for 50 years. Never even close to 80%, and never comparable to the amout of public sentiment behind assisted dying.

The other lie, as you were already called out on, was calling this "the state killing it's innocent citizens".
 
domalino said:
You said 70-80% of Brits want the death penalty back. That is a lie.
It's hovered between 45-55% for 50 years. Never even close to 80%, and never comparable to the amout of public sentiment behind assisted dying.
The other lie, as you were already called out on, was calling this "the state killing it's innocent citizens".
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My point was simply about positive opinion poll support for capital punishment but it could be implied I was suggesting by exactly same percentage at a stretch. The implication was incorrect so therefore you'll just have to accept I wasn't lying then or now - or just double down. As for your edit - you don't consider assisted suicide authorised by the state is a true description of what this current bill will enact? - read on MacDuff
www.theguardian.com

Assisted dying bill is a ‘licence to kill’, Theresa May says

Former prime minister makes comments as Lords debate legislation for England and Wales for first time
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
stonerblue said:
Firstly, under this bill, people who have been given 6 months to live would be eligible. Obviously they are extremely ill,probably bed bound,probably racked with pain and most definitely have nothing to look forward to. Why would a relative 'coerce' them to end their life sooner, rather than lasting out until they die naturally? What could be gained?
Secondly, would you be happy to have everything done for you by your partner/family? Spoon fed, washed and cleaned, shoppping, cooking, dressing, lifting in and out of bed etc etc. I'm guessing the answer is no, and thats nothing to do with the attitudes that others may have. It is a fundamental part of being an adult human.
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The point being made is not about coercion by others - although that cannot be ruled out - but that officially sanctioned assisted suicide will be seen by vulnerable people as a new 'approved' option that will benefit others and therefore should be followed despite their own preference to struggle on. Self sacrifice is a value our culture has historically encouraged and no doubt will exploited by some but it will certainly be inappropriately felt as a reason to follow this route by many sick and aged people.
 
johnny crossan said:
The point being made is not about coercion by others - although that cannot be ruled out - but that officially sanctioned assisted suicide will be seen by vulnerable people as a new 'approved' option that will benefit others and therefore should be followed despite their own preference to struggle on. Self sacrifice is a value our culture has historically encouraged and no doubt will exploited by some but it will certainly be inappropriately felt as a reason to follow this route by many sick and aged people.
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Just hope you're never lying in your own shit and piss, wracked with pain, can't get yourself out of bed, can't even get yourself a glass of water, but are fully aware that this is as good as its going to get for the next 4 months. Death will come slowly, you'll very likely be on your own, confused and scared but at least no one will have 'killed you', so that's alright then.
 
stonerblue said:
Firstly, under this bill, people who have been given 6 months to live would be eligible. Obviously they are extremely ill,probably bed bound,probably racked with pain and most definitely have nothing to look forward to. Why would a relative 'coerce' them to end their life sooner, rather than lasting out until they die naturally? What could be gained?
Secondly, would you be happy to have everything done for you by your partner/family? Spoon fed, washed and cleaned, shoppping, cooking, dressing, lifting in and out of bed etc etc. I'm guessing the answer is no, and thats nothing to do with the attitudes that others may have. It is a fundamental part of being an adult human.
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They are unlikely to be bed bound, very ill, racked with pain or any other way to describe someone with a life limiting illness and a prognosis of 6 months. Less than 1 in 5 people at end of life experience severe daily pain in their last weeks, days or hours - even so that pain can be controlled and often is. The fear we all have is that we will die in pain, the vast majority of us won’t.

Talking of prognosis doctors are incredibly inaccurate at any prognosis that isn’t measured in weeks or years.

In terms of activities of daily living (washing, eating etc) people within the last 4 weeks of life will typically start to require more help of varying degrees - 4 in 5 people will and a lot of that depends on the reason they are dying. But come on, do you want to be put down 5 weeks before you’ll die just to save having some loving relative give you a bit of care?
 
The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
Just hope you're never lying in your own shit and piss, wracked with pain, can't get yourself out of bed, can't even get yourself a glass of water, but are fully aware that this is as good as its going to get for the next 4 months. Death will come slowly, you'll very likely be on your own, confused and scared but at least no one will have 'killed you', so that's alright then.
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None of this is based on any evidence. This is why it doesn’t matter what % of the public support it because most of the public don’t have a clue.
 
The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
Just hope you're never lying in your own shit and piss, wracked with pain, can't get yourself out of bed, can't even get yourself a glass of water, but are fully aware that this is as good as its going to get for the next 4 months. Death will come slowly, you'll very likely be on your own, confused and scared but at least no one will have 'killed you', so that's alright then.
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You don't have a clue about me or what I have experienced in eight decades on this planet. Appalling post.
 
johnny crossan said:
You don't have a clue about me or what I have experienced in eight decades on this planet. Appalling post.
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I saw what my father went through with him hating every minute of it. If you don't want anyone to help you, that's your choice. He would have made a different choice, had it been available, as would a couple of very close friends.
 
johnny crossan said:
The point being made is not about coercion by others - although that cannot be ruled out - but that officially sanctioned assisted suicide will be seen by vulnerable people as a new 'approved' option that will benefit others and therefore should be followed despite their own preference to struggle on. Self sacrifice is a value our culture has historically encouraged and no doubt will exploited by some but it will certainly be inappropriately felt as a reason to follow this route by many sick and aged people.
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If they want to 'struggle on' they can and will despite what aunty fucking Margaret might say. It's not self fucking sacrifice either so don't start with that psycho babble bullshit.
 
metalblue said:
They are unlikely to be bed bound, very ill, racked with pain or any other way to describe someone with a life limiting illness and a prognosis of 6 months. Less than 1 in 5 people at end of life experience severe daily pain in their last weeks, days or hours - even so that pain can be controlled and often is. The fear we all have is that we will die in pain, the vast majority of us won’t.

Talking of prognosis doctors are incredibly inaccurate at any prognosis that isn’t measured in weeks or years.

In terms of activities of daily living (washing, eating etc) people within the last 4 weeks of life will typically start to require more help of varying degrees - 4 in 5 people will and a lot of that depends on the reason they are dying. But come on, do you want to be put down 5 weeks before you’ll die just to save having some loving relative give you a bit of care?
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This seems based on the idea that the patient hasn't spent the previous years of a degenerative disease in pain, unable to do anything or had help from relatives/friends
 
metalblue said:
None of this is based on any evidence. This is why it doesn’t matter what % of the public support it because most of the public don’t have a clue.
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Everyone who has a slowly dieing friend or relative 'has a clue. It's the twats that don't experience this every minute of every day who know fuck all and base their opinion on made up shit.
 
The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
I saw what my father went through with him hating every minute of it. If you don't want anyone to help you, that's your choice. He would have made a different choice, had it been available, as would a couple of very close friends.
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This is the most salient bit. Choice.

What’s right for some, isn’t right for others, whichever side of the debate you are on.
 
stonerblue said:
This seems based on the idea that the patient hasn't spent the previous years of a degenerative disease in pain, unable to do anything or had help from relatives/friends
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100% mate. Of course some people (1 in 5) will have severe pain either chronic or in the final days or weeks.

You’ll no doubt find that certain illnesses have a higher likelihood of pain.
 
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