PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

But CAS didn't do that. They decided on how limitation would apply then only heard evidence that wasn't time-barred. We simply don't know the details of the PL hearing though so probably pointless to speculate.

It's also entirely possible that the PL's rules were so loosely put together (as we saw in the APT case) that they never even thought about this.

More to the point, the PL's rules shouldn't be used for stuff like this.

Anyway, once again, as I understand it, UEFA had a very clear five year limitation in their rules - no ifs and buts: events older than five years = time-barred - so the only question for CAS was exactly when the limitation period started. There is no such rule in the PL rulebook so if/when they start deliberating limitation, it will be under English law which opens the door to discussions around dates of discovery and the like, and meaning they will have to investigate every allegation to determine if the extended limitation period applies or not.

As I understand it. Possibly wrongly :)
 
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Not at all, as he's right. All the evidence has to be heard to decide if limitation can be applied or not
I said it wouldn't and I thought you said it would but your now saying it might?
Actually it's clear nobody really knows for sure so lets just see what happens.
 
So if this falls under Premier League Section W and is a purely disciplinary matter, it can be assumed that the Premier League has done everything possible to frame the charges as regulatory breaches rather than civil or criminal fraud. That makes the allegations objectively justiciable, does not require the application of the Ivey dishonesty test, and does not engage the Limitation Act. They clearly learned from UEFA’s mistakes.
 
I said it wouldn't and I thought you said it would but your now saying it might?
Actually it's clear nobody really knows for sure so lets just see what happens.
No I'm saying, all the evidence will be heard and then a bunch of lawyers will argue what will be covered under the limitations act. Some of it will be, some of it won't. It depends how the lawyers argue the case
 
Are people purposely using legal jargon words to prove something. Layman's terms would be so much more useful. Iv never even heard the word justiciable before. I don't know what section w is or revision x.  Frustrating. And now someone is going to call me thick or whatever, nonetheless the information pertaining to these extraneous charges is superfluous to what we want to know. Is it good or bad? That would be better. Thanking.
 
Even though I am also an old **** I seem to share a lot of similarities with your son in terms of what I do or don't listen to or read.
Just not the same having a shite on the bog reading your phone on a Sunday morning. Lack of arse wiping material for a start
 
People are worrying for what????

Find us guilty of every charge-I still love my team and will support them.It changes nothing at all for me in relation to City.
Find us not guilty..Business as usual.

If what Slbsn is saying is correct then I ask one question.Serious criminal allegations would need the serious fraud office / police etc to be involved if not time barred?

I would assume if the Premier League had evidence of criminal wrongdoing it would have a duty to its shareholders to report that to the police when it was discovered?
 
But CAS didn't do that. They decided on how limitation would apply then only heard evidence that wasn't time-barred. We simply don't know the details of the PL hearing though so probably pointless to speculate.

It's also entirely possible that the PL's rules were so loosely put together (as we saw in the APT case) that they never even thought about this.
The difference is that the 5 year time bar under UEFA's statutes was an absolute time bar. No exceptions. Makes you wonder why they charged CIty with the time barred allegations in the first place.

The Premier League's rules operate as a contract between City and the PL, which is expressly subject to English law. The contract contains something called a "disciplinary" section but which is actually simply an internal dispute resolution process, by which allegations that a club has breached the terms of that contract are decided.

So on the face of it there is a 6 year limitation period. However, there is also an exception which provides that the period does not begin to run if the cause of action is concealed, and only starts to run at the point that the PL knew or ought to have known of the breaches.

So in the case of the claim that the club has disguised owner funding as sponsorship from Etihad, say, the point at which the League ought to have known is, unless something truly remarkable emerges in the judgment, the point at which Der Spiegel printed the hacked emails.

But the allegations relating to Fordham, say, seem to involve limitation issues because it was both within City's accounts and Fordham's back in 2014/15 or whenever it was that the image rights had been passed on. Nothing was concealed (as I understand it). With reasonable diligence, the PL could have found out what had been going on for themselves at that time, so I struggle to see how the concealment exception can be invoked. If that's right, I'm not sure how that aspect of the charges gets over a Limitation defence.

TL:DR, the limitation period may be extended depending on which charges you are talking about and what the evidence demonstrates.
 
Spend £350m on the ground , give the best finisher in the world a £250m ten year contract and spend £400m on players not forgetting the £50m we have spent on lawyers , anybody really think the club is concerned ? All Masters can do is the same as UEFA , stuff us for non-co-operation , as Khaldoon said he was willing to take a pinch and pay the £25m with UEFA , but i think he is playing hard ball with the Premier league and telling them to fuck off and you can pay our legal fees as well.
If you are going to accuse a multi-million pound business of fraud and our multi million pound sponsors the Premier league better have some nailed on evidence and not some cobbled together e-mails from a convicted fraudster and blackmailer.
 
People are worrying for what????

Find us guilty of every charge-I still love my team and will support them.It changes nothing at all for me in relation to City.
Find us not guilty..Business as usual.

If what Slbsn is saying is correct then I ask one question.Serious criminal allegations would need the serious fraud office / police etc to be involved if not time barred?
I posted exactly the same about the fraud squad and why haven't they raided our premises and Stefan absolutely dismissed it saying it isn't anything to do with these charges. I said it was. If you are being accused of fraud then you get investigated.

I haven't read the last few pages so I presume the narrative has changed has it?
 
But CAS didn't do that. They decided on how limitation would apply then only heard evidence that wasn't time-barred. We simply don't know the details of the PL hearing though so probably pointless to speculate.

It's also entirely possible that the PL's rules were so loosely put together (as we saw in the APT case) that they never even thought about this.
CAS did hear the evidence
 
I was asked to respond to the latest discussion against my self imposed ban on this limitation question. I do so because I have moved from my original position and the position that most lawyers on here seem to agree with. I was wrong, I think, to consider it so simply and think the focus on the overarching English law qualification of the Premier League rules may not offer the whole answer.

On reflection, I think the key here is that this is a disciplinary case under Section W. So whilst it is all governed by English law, disciplinary processes are seen differently from dispute resolution (Section X). That is usually because discipline, as in any industry, is seen as an important public confidence issue and professional wrong doing should not be allowed simply because of the passage of time.

However, this is complicated in the City case because the underlying allegations are, we think, related to matters that would ordinarily be fraud, accounting issues, financial non-compliance etc that is not merely sporting discipline. Those matters are usually non-arbitrable. These matters may fall outside the Premier League's contractual disciplinary jurisdiction entirely. You cannot prosecute fraud through a sports tribunal and avoid limitation by calling it "discipline." If the charges require proving effective criminal dishonesty, they are fraud allegations regardless of the label, and limitation should apply, six years from when the Premier League discovered (or should have discovered) the fraud.

City may have argued that the Premier League lacked jurisdiction to determine fraud allegations at all and that such matters should be in the courts where limitation, proper evidence rules, and processes apply. Whether anyone ran this argument, we do not know - City may have accepted jurisdiction. It seems that if City did accept jurisdiction, limitation is not in play. Very old allegations or weak cases could be dismissed for abuse of process but this requires the accused to show real prejudice, all unlikely here.

As I have previously said, I always felt it probably irrelevant either way, be it due to:
1) the fact that time barring could only ever, even in court, apply once all the evidence had already been heard anyway (at which point you have either brought the judge/panel with you or they are going the other way) or
2) because if the panel found against City on most of the key charges, they would have to have been deliberately concealed.

So, either way limitation would not be a bar.

Assuming City did not challenge the PLs Section W jurisdiction at this stage (perhaps leaving it for an appeal, though much harder if they never ran the argument at all), then the disciplinary proceedings probably continued treating these as regulatory breaches under Section W where no limitation periods apply. The panel will determine whether City breached the rules and ignore limitation as that question does not arise in their Section W framework.

If City lose and want to argue on appeal that the charges were actually fraud allegations outside the PL's jurisdiction, they face the problem that by participating without protest they may have accepted jurisdiction. An appeal will be reluctant to let parties submit to a process, lose, then challenge jurisdiction afterwards. The time to fight jurisdiction is at the start, not after an adverse decision. If City reserved their position explicitly throughout, an appeal might succeed on jurisdictional grounds, but if they treated it as straightforward regulatory discipline, that ship has likely sailed.
 
The difference is that the 5 year time bar under UEFA's statutes was an absolute time bar. No exceptions. Makes you wonder why they charged CIty with the time barred allegations in the first place.

The Premier League's rules operate as a contract between City and the PL, which is expressly subject to English law. The contract contains something called a "disciplinary" section but which is actually simply an internal dispute resolution process, by which allegations that a club has breached the terms of that contract are decided.

So on the face of it there is a 6 year limitation period. However, there is also an exception which provides that the period does not begin to run if the cause of action is concealed, and only starts to run at the point that the PL knew or ought to have known of the breaches.

So in the case of the claim that the club has disguised owner funding as sponsorship from Etihad, say, the point at which the League ought to have known is, unless something truly remarkable emerges in the judgment, the point at which Der Spiegel printed the hacked emails.

But the allegations relating to Fordham, say, seem to involve limitation issues because it was both within City's accounts and Fordham's back in 2014/15 or whenever it was that the image rights had been passed on. Nothing was concealed (as I understand it). With reasonable diligence, the PL could have found out what had been going on for themselves at that time, so I struggle to see how the concealment exception can be invoked. If that's right, I'm not sure how that aspect of the charges gets over a Limitation defence.

TL:DR, the limitation period may be extended depending on which charges you are talking about and what the evidence demonstrates.
Thanks Chris. As you say, the Fordham thing was in plain sight and, as I've said before, appears to have been done with the intention of improving revenue, rather than concealing expenses.

The interesting one will be that first group of charges, around commercial arrangements with Abu Dhabi companies. Obviously we don't know the exact, detailed charges but related parties is specifically highlighted within the heading of that first group. So it's a fair bet that the issues of whether Etihad, inter alia, is a related party or not is at least part of those charges. This first came up in the 2014 UEFA settlement agreement, when there was an unresolved dispute between PWC, who were UEFA's advisors, and our auditors over this matter. That would suggest that the PL ought to have been aware of this issue as early as 2014.
 
I think the signings of Semenyo and Guehi are more than just soft signals personally. Both players were making the biggest moves of their careers, and had numerous options, but both chose City. These aren't decisions you take lightly (uprooting your family etc) and with a decision "imminent" in the 115 case, they will obviously have sought assurances from the club. I know they'll have release clauses if necessary, but if there were any slight doubts about the outcome they would have turned us down or at least waited until the summer imo. Who knows what the club told them, but it must have been more substantial than the "maintain our innocence" line they put out publicly. Clearly the club haven't been informed of the actual verdict yet, but they must be supremely confident which way this is heading.
As was the Captain of The Titanic.
 
CAS did hear the evidence

I thought that part about Etisalat was part of City's submission to CAS before the hearing, and therefore before the limitation discussions took place. So City presented evidence but the decision on limitation to only look at transactions that took place from 2013/14 inclusive excluded that.

I didn't think that the CAS panel actually considered that evidence. Happy to be proved wrong though.
 
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