Keir Starmer

[Vic]

Except for not mentioning that the triple lock put in place by the Tories was necessary at the time because we had the lowest pension as a percentage of average wage in Western Europe. The post correctly called out defined benefit or final salary pensions ceased to exist in private industry (not public employers) what was omitted was the cause. Gordon Brown the then Chancellor wanted some money to waste, so he imposed a tax raid on the growth invested by the fund managers of the schemes. Previously the growth of the schemes investment was shielded from tax which encouraged growth of the schemes value. After the tax raid by Brown the funds did not grow enough to meet the requirement of the published Defined Benefit which was a 1/60th of the final salary x the number of years contributed. Example 1/60th x 30 years contributions = half of final salary.
With the demise of the defined benefits scheme, Companies switched to defined contributions which means you pay a percentage of salary & that is invested. These schemes are not as beneficial as defined benefits.
The state pension is very complex, the media often quote a figure of 12k, very few pensioners receive this. Those that had a private pension have the year’s contributions to that scheme “ contracted out” therefore do not qualify for full pension. Also those born before 1951 only qualify for the “old state pension “ which is around 10k. This is ridiculous, you often hear today’s pensioners are affluent, that maybe the case for some, however the vast majority are just ok, not starving not well off. I sometimes get the impression that some people would be a lot happier if pensioners were living in poverty, forgetting that one day they may live to be pensioners. The majority of today’s pensioners have had to pay 35+ years into the NI scheme so therefore are fully entitled to receive the state pension.

Gordon Brown did not kill defined benefit schemes. Unless he did it in the USA too. Longevity killed the schemes. And less union power.

Here's a summary. The only Chancellor mentioned is Nigel Lawson.

The Last Remaining Defined Benefit Schemes: A Deeper Look - Actuarial Solutions

Asees explores the rise and decline of DB Pension Schemes, and considers the impact of this on secure retirement for future generations.

aprllp.com

 

[Vic]

Pension credit is means tested, very low bar too, & its based on household income, I think some people should try living on means tested benefits, not sure there would be many booking weekends in London for the cup final.

So most pensioners do get £12k (pension plus pension credit and other benefits on top).

 

[Kompany Car]

A reasoned response unlike some.

However you have played down property increases. And whilst final salary stopped it did exist and whilst defined contribution was less generous it was more generous than a bog standard workplace scheme

Over funding of local government funds ?

Defined contribution as I stated was not more generous back in the day, in fact defined contribution was not even required to be offered by the employer. Of course there were some but they were the exception. In general they are more generous now than they used to be, due to legislation.

Final salary still exists in the public sector now if you want it, go work for a council, be a teacher, work for the NHS etc. Back in the day, outside of nationalised industries it was only the businesses with large union recognition by the private sector employer who had it and even then unless you were well paid it was hardly going to make you rich as the terms were nowhere near as good, with much worse accrual rates by comparison to those offered to public sector workers.

Property prices have indeed increased and affordability is an issue for younger people, that is without doubt. Its not an easy one to crack to be honest and is a problem across the whole of Northern Europe and much more acute in places like the Netherlands. The largest driver for the cost of housing in the UK isn't older people holding onto property, but the rise of buy to let landlords and the likes of Blackstone plus other US investment firms buying up property in the UK.

Downsizing is maybe an option and is likely to be a forced anyway due to the cost of elder care at anything up to £1500 a week. A secondary undesirable effect of downsizing is increasing the price of smaller properties due to the lack of supply in the current market, which further impacts affordability at the bottom end of the market.

Re overfunding of local government pension funds, unlike the NHS pension, local government pensions have to hold assets to cover their liability when paying out final salary pensions to their members.

To quote ...
"The average funding level increased to 123%, compared with 107% in 2022.

According to data published by the LGPS Advisory Board, funds such as Kensington & Chelsea reached 175% of funding, while other funds also recorded high levels in the 2025 triannual valuation, such as Gwynedd (166%), Staffordshire (155%) and West Sussex (162%)."

https://www.lgcplus.com/lgps/revealed-funding-levels-of-council-pension-funds-09-04-2026

The numbers may not sound that big on the surface until you realise that the value of the assets held in the funds across the country in total are just short of £600Bn, so a 23% overfunding is a huge amount of money.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Gordon Brown did not kill defined benefit schemes. Unless he did it in the USA too. Longevity killed the schemes. And less union power.

Here's a summary. The only Chancellor mentioned is Nigel Lawson.

The Last Remaining Defined Benefit Schemes: A Deeper Look - Actuarial Solutions

Asees explores the rise and decline of DB Pension Schemes, and considers the impact of this on secure retirement for future generations.

aprllp.com

Not on his own perhaps but you cannot deny that his tax raid on them made them increasingly unaffordable. It did not exactly help!

Just another example of Labour not understanding the damaging effect of tax rises. The failed logic that you can keep raising tax revenues by constantly increasing the rate and the scope of taxes, and that this will not have any adverse knock on effects.

We're seeing it play out right now with the significant fall in hiring rates after Reeves' employer's NI raid. For example.

 

[Vic]

Not belittling the pension debate but this is the Starmer thread. So kind of on topic..

View attachment 192032View attachment 192031

More silly innuendo. Just filled a gap to make the DPP scheme match equivalent civil service schemes. It's in the explanatory memorandum in the regulation and that rules had changed so the DPP's pension now comes under the usual civil service rules.

 

[mosssideblue]

So most pensioners do get £12k (pension plus pension credit and other benefits on top).

May be wrong but pension credit it to top up a pension to £12k not add to it

 

[Vic]

May be wrong but pension credit it to top up a pension to £12k not add to it

The poster claimed that most pensioners got less than £12k. Their actual pension might be less than that but pension credit means they still get £12k (and entitlement to other benefits).

 

[WRicko]

Defined contribution as I stated was not more generous back in the day, in fact defined contribution was not even required to be offered by the employer. Of course there were some but they were the exception. In general they are more generous now than they used to be, due to legislation.

Final salary still exists in the public sector now if you want it, go work for a council, be a teacher, work for the NHS etc. Back in the day, outside of nationalised industries it was only the businesses with large union recognition by the private sector employer who had it and even then unless you were well paid it was hardly going to make you rich as the terms were nowhere near as good, with much worse accrual rates by comparison to those offered to public sector workers.

Property prices have indeed increased and affordability is an issue for younger people, that is without doubt. Its not an easy one to crack to be honest and is a problem across the whole of Northern Europe and much more acute in places like the Netherlands. The largest driver for the cost of housing in the UK isn't older people holding onto property, but the rise of buy to let landlords and the likes of Blackstone plus other US investment firms buying up property in the UK.

Downsizing is maybe an option and is likely to be a forced anyway due to the cost of elder care at anything up to £1500 a week. A secondary undesirable effect of downsizing is increasing the price of smaller properties due to the lack of supply in the current market, which further impacts affordability at the bottom end of the market.

Re overfunding of local government pension funds, unlike the NHS pension, local government pensions have to hold assets to cover their liability when paying out final salary pensions to their members.

To quote ...
"The average funding level increased to 123%, compared with 107% in 2022.

According to data published by the LGPS Advisory Board, funds such as Kensington & Chelsea reached 175% of funding, while other funds also recorded high levels in the 2025 triannual valuation, such as Gwynedd (166%), Staffordshire (155%) and West Sussex (162%)."

https://www.lgcplus.com/lgps/revealed-funding-levels-of-council-pension-funds-09-04-2026

The numbers may not sound that big on the surface until you realise that the value of the assets held in the funds across the country in total are just short of £600Bn, so a 23% overfunding is a huge amount of money.

My point is not that defined benefits got more or less generous but that you don’t really get them anymore and they are more generous than for example auto enrollment

They might have more than they need in those local government funds but you don’t know how long the people will live and what the actual liability is

Final salary only in nationalized industries and public sector that still a lot especially nationalised you say it wasn’t generous in amounts but if you living till your 80 90 100 it is even if it’s a low amount per year because your salary is low

 

[Chippy_boy]

Its clear that the entire provision of state pensions needs radical reform. The idea that today's contributions pay for today's pensions is and always was, ridiculous and sure to fail under changing demographics, i.e. an aging population.

Some reforms already in place I welcome - such as those introduce by Steve Webb, providing more flexibility and reducing the risk of being caught by penal annuity rates in the day you retire. Also mandating company schemes and employee contributions.

But these changes do not go far enough. We need to move to a model where the state pension is far more generous, but only to those who need it. This would make it affordable whilst providing a decent standard of living for the poorer in society.

However such reform needs a very long runway. Those unlikely to receive this new, higher state pension need 30 or 40 years to mitigate this loss and to be able to build up their own reserves. Were individuals able to put an extra say 5% in (perhaps saved from reduced NI contributions) on top of perhaps 5% employee and 5% employer contributions, then a total 15% of gross income invested over say 40 years will generate a very decent pot to fund retirement.

What we absolutely cannot do is spring this on retirees or those close to retirement whose lifelong financial planning has been built on the assumption of a state pension broadly in line in value (in real terms) where it is today.

 

[Heartofoakes64]

Gordon Brown did not kill defined benefit schemes. Unless he did it in the USA too. Longevity killed the schemes. And less union power.

Here's a summary. The only Chancellor mentioned is Nigel Lawson.

The Last Remaining Defined Benefit Schemes: A Deeper Look - Actuarial Solutions

Asees explores the rise and decline of DB Pension Schemes, and considers the impact of this on secure retirement for future generations.

aprllp.com

Absolute nonsense it is widely known Brown caused the demise of Defined Benefit schemes, I was a Trustee at the time for a large manufacturing company, after a few years of losing the tax benefits the scheme enjoyed, it went from a surplus to a negative in terms of projected balance. In other words the scheme couldn’t cover its liabilities. This was a direct result of growth being taxed after Browns intervention. The company at great expense & disruption/negotiations with unions had to transition to a defined contribution or money purchase scheme. A massive task, so I can only speak of our scheme being changed because of Browns tax grab, but it is a hell of a coincidence that others were doing the same. IIRC the Steel workers in Wales (we still had a steel industry then) had a dispute over the demise of their scheme. I will research this later after the final

 

[Vic]

Absolute nonsense it is widely known Brown caused the demise of Defined Benefit schemes, I was a Trustee at the time for a large manufacturing company, after a few years of losing the tax benefits the scheme enjoyed, it went from a surplus to a negative in terms of projected balance. In other words the scheme couldn’t cover its liabilities. This was a direct result of growth being taxed after Browns intervention. The company at great expense & disruption/negotiations with unions had to transition to a defined contribution or money purchase scheme. A massive task, so I can only speak of our scheme being changed because of Browns tax grab, but it is a hell of a coincidence that others were doing the same. IIRC the Steel workers in Wales (we still had a steel industry then) had a dispute over the demise of their scheme. I will research this later after the final

I'll pre-empt it before the final.

FactCheck: Did Gordon destroy our pensions?

Has, as George Osborne claims, Gordon Brown single-handedly destroyed the pension system?

www.channel4.com

Obviously things may have been different in smaller companies but this was a time when many pension funds were so much in surplus that companies could take a pensions holiday from making contributions. Rentokil did not make any contributions from 1999 to 2004 at a time when the company was producing 20% profit growth and paying large dividends to shareholders. In 2004 the company contributed £6.8m to plug a deficit of £187m. The deficit rose to £263m by December 2004 and then £286.5m by July 2005. Then they closed the defined benefit scheme.

 

[metalblue]

Waffling ? Are you in his meetings ? Not making decisions? True he has had a lot of reviews no bad thing but more seems to have happened under him than 14 years of Tories

Without disclosing who or what I know, Jess Phillips alluded to it. Waffling may have been a bit strong, procrastination perhaps better.

 

[metalblue]

A reasoned response unlike some.

However you have played down property increases. And whilst final salary stopped it did exist and whilst defined contribution was less generous it was more generous than a bog standard workplace scheme

Over funding of local government funds ?

Property increases are broadly a myth. When you work out original purchase prices and mortgage interest then convert to today’s prices there is very little in the money paid out and the value now. That’s not to say the next generation are not going to do worse out of it as properly prices are unlikely to increase as they have done over the past 20 odd years (my guess).

 

[metalblue]

Labour have done more for people in 14 months than Tories did in 14 years. However, now they’ve shit the bed and forced the issue of change, which was probably always on the cards, those same people who found a bit of sanctuary will now suffer for the sake of certain Labour MPs trying to keep their noses in the trough.

It’s not even about Burnham, not about their constituents, it’s about them.

No wonder so many people have turned to alternative parties, trust is so low that people are grasping for anything that sounds like a positive change.

I mean furlough was pretty helpful. I’d say that alone is more than anything Labour has done but feel free to list anything that trumps leaving millions on the dole.

 

[Heartofoakes64]

I'll pre-empt it before the final.

FactCheck: Did Gordon destroy our pensions?

Has, as George Osborne claims, Gordon Brown single-handedly destroyed the pension system?

www.channel4.com

Obviously things may have been different in smaller companies but this was a time when many pension funds were so much in surplus that companies could take a pensions holiday from making contributions. Rentokil did not make any contributions from 1999 to 2004 at a time when the company was producing 20% profit growth and paying large dividends to shareholders. In 2004 the company contributed £6.8m to plug a deficit of £187m. The deficit rose to £263m by December 2004 and then £286.5m by July 2005. Then they closed the defined benefit scheme.

First of all apologies for the brusque reply to your post, the reasons for this rudeness are twofold 1) I must confess to still being in bed nursing a bad head courtesy of Henry Weston’s Vintage, 2) the initial demise of final salary impacted my life plans which concluded with taking early retirement with a tax free lump sum. I was in a fortunate position of knowing that the scheme was transitioning to a money purchase scheme. This transition involved certain benefits of the scheme being removed. One was early retirement + lump sum without losing benefits so long as you had 30 years contributions. Therefore I took early retirement, whilst I do not regret this action it was forced on me rather than chosen, I’m not the kind of guy that appreciates this kind of process. This is the reason why I have such a passion for pensions.
Back to pension “holidays” this is a very complex issue. The companies involved were effectively avoiding their payments into the scheme by taking advantage of a loophole in the pension rules.Having to much of an excess when all the liabilities were calculated was technically against the rules and tantamount to a tax avoidance tactic. However they were sailing close to the wind taking a holiday from contributing to the scheme because if investment growth was low the scheme could go into deficit. A reduction of contribution rather than a holiday was the prudent way. This evened out the rough with the smooth, unfortunately the bean counters never saw it that way.
The problem caused by the demise of final salary schemes & increase in individual money purchase schemes is the volatility of investment growth & cost of annuity purchase process, typically a modest pension of 20k would require the purchase of a annuity costing at least £300k. Anyway enough of that for today. Come on City let’s have a great day at the final.

 

[Gray]

Not on his own perhaps but you cannot deny that his tax raid on them made them increasingly unaffordable. It did not exactly help!

Just another example of Labour not understanding the damaging effect of tax rises. The failed logic that you can keep raising tax revenues by constantly increasing the rate and the scope of taxes, and that this will not have any adverse knock on effects.

We're seeing it play out right now with the significant fall in hiring rates after Reeves' employer's NI raid. For example.

Well I personally blame him for the death of company pensions schemes in this country. I was a member elected trustee of my company pension fund and know only to well what his removal of the tax concessions did to our own pension fund. Before he came along the Actuaries of our scheme said it was adequately funded by the time of the next scheduled review we were well underfunded. This was partly due to an underperforming stock market but mainly due to Brown’s tax grab to fund his barmy policies. The scheme is now administered by the Pension Protection Fund.

 

[Heartofoakes64]

Labour have done more for people in 14 months than Tories did in 14 years. However, now they’ve shit the bed and forced the issue of change, which was probably always on the cards, those same people who found a bit of sanctuary will now suffer for the sake of certain Labour MPs trying to keep their noses in the trough.

It’s not even about Burnham, not about their constituents, it’s about them.

No wonder so many people have turned to alternative parties, trust is so low that people are grasping for anything that sounds like a positive change.

I do not want to be pedantic but the Tories were not in government for 14 years for 5 of those years they were in a coalition with the Lib Dem’s, you remember that charming man Nick Clegg et al. Just saying.

 

[Heartofoakes64]

Well I personally blame him for the death of company pensions schemes in this country. I was a member elected trustee of my company pension fund and know only to well what his removal of the tax concessions did to our own pension fund. Before he came along the Actuaries of our scheme said it was adequately funded by the time of the next scheduled review we were well underfunded. This was partly due to an underperforming stock market but mainly due to Brown’s tax grab to fund his barmy policies. The scheme is now administered by the Pension Protection Fund.

Very similar to my experience too.

 

[WRicko]

Defined contribution as I stated was not more generous back in the day, in fact defined contribution was not even required to be offered by the employer. Of course there were some but they were the exception. In general they are more generous now than they used to be, due to legislation.

Final salary still exists in the public sector now if you want it, go work for a council, be a teacher, work for the NHS etc. Back in the day, outside of nationalised industries it was only the businesses with large union recognition by the private sector employer who had it and even then unless you were well paid it was hardly going to make you rich as the terms were nowhere near as good, with much worse accrual rates by comparison to those offered to public sector workers.

Property prices have indeed increased and affordability is an issue for younger people, that is without doubt. Its not an easy one to crack to be honest and is a problem across the whole of Northern Europe and much more acute in places like the Netherlands. The largest driver for the cost of housing in the UK isn't older people holding onto property, but the rise of buy to let landlords and the likes of Blackstone plus other US investment firms buying up property in the UK.

Downsizing is maybe an option and is likely to be a forced anyway due to the cost of elder care at anything up to £1500 a week. A secondary undesirable effect of downsizing is increasing the price of smaller properties due to the lack of supply in the current market, which further impacts affordability at the bottom end of the market.

Re overfunding of local government pension funds, unlike the NHS pension, local government pensions have to hold assets to cover their liability when paying out final salary pensions to their members.

To quote ...
"The average funding level increased to 123%, compared with 107% in 2022.

According to data published by the LGPS Advisory Board, funds such as Kensington & Chelsea reached 175% of funding, while other funds also recorded high levels in the 2025 triannual valuation, such as Gwynedd (166%), Staffordshire (155%) and West Sussex (162%)."

https://www.lgcplus.com/lgps/revealed-funding-levels-of-council-pension-funds-09-04-2026

The numbers may not sound that big on the surface until you realise that the value of the assets held in the funds across the country in total are just short of £600Bn, so a 23% overfunding is a huge amount of money.

My point is not that defined benefit pensions are more or less generous now it’s that defined benefit are more generous than for example auto auto enrollment nest stop miss repenting what I am saying

Property increases are broadly a myth. When you work out original purchase prices and mortgage interest then convert to today’s prices there is very little in the money paid out and the value now. That’s not to say the next generation are not going to do worse out of it as properly prices are unlikely to increase as they have done over the past 20 odd years (my guess).

i don’t buy that property prices have gone up loads.

 

[WRicko]

Without disclosing who or what I know, Jess Phillips alluded to it. Waffling may have been a bit strong, procrastination perhaps better.

She said he was slow to act but she doesn’t seem to have justified it it’s not even his department. It was her area. He was the guy who prosecuted these sort of people I am sure he acts as quickly as he can no one wants people to abuse kids or women