Bundesliga review part 2. the new one :)

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exact dates released see below

Scaring Europe to Death said:
Does anyone know if there’s a set format for how the Bundesliga 2 games are scheduled, and more specifically, how far in advance, they’re switched,

We’re looking at Manchester-Hamburg (currently only £100 return Friday 18/9-25/9), and then maybe staying nearer to the Ruhr Valley/

Alex,: Ingolstadt are at Werder Bremen that weekend, and Bremen’s ground is only a short tram ride from the hauptbahnhof


There’s also a full midweek programme for both divisions, so hopefully we could do at least four games Saturday-Wednesday.

Bochum v Fortuna Friday

Hamburg v Eintracht Frankfurt Saturday

Werder Bremen v Ingolstadt Saturday

Cologne v Monchengladbach Saturday


Braunschweig v St Pauli Sunday

Duisburg v FSV Frankfurt Sunday


Midweek
Bielefeld v Bochum Tuesday

KSC-Düsseldorf Tuesday

FCK - Nürnberg Tuesday


Duisburg v Braunschweig Wednesday

Schalke v Eintracht Frankfurt Wednesday

Leverkusen v Mainz Wednesday

Monchengladbach v Augsburg Wednesday

Hannover v Stuttgart Wednesday

Hoffenheim v Dortmund Wednesday

St Pauli v Heidenheim Wednesday


Obviously, this would mean missing City v West Ham, and a League Cup game, but ideally we’d do a couple of new grounds and hopefully the Cologne-Monchengladbach derby.
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some more precise plans already?
 
Cheers everyone


We’ve booked an outward flight to Dusseldorf on Friday September 19th, so trying to do a mixture of new grounds and top Bundesliga games


Friday: Bochum v Fortuna Dusseldorf

Saturday: Cologne v Borussia Monchengladbach

Sunday: Duisburg v FSV Frankfurt

Tuesday: Kaiserslautern v Nurnberg

Wednesday Leverkusen v Mainz or Schalke v Eintracht Frankfurt

Probably return the following morning, but toying with the idea of staying for a few games, depending on whether City draw a German team in the Champions League.
 
Just for your info
There are still 3000 seats and 200 standing tickets available at the momemt for the match Schalke -Frankfurt on Wednesday 23.09. on members sale
Possibly there are still some available when Free sale starts on Monday 13
Check www.tickets-aufschalke.de

if not there might be still a chance on www.s04-ticketboerse.de/fansale/
prior to the match if you have a bank account in a "Euro" Country.You can buy and sell tickets there Schalke tickets from Fans for Fans
on Face value with a small booking fee.

There is also a ticket market on fansale for Cologne Mainz Nuremberg Braunschweig and St Pauli as far as I know
Check their website.(website in English btw ´:)

and there still is www.schalke-fanclub-uk.com/
 
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Scaring Europe to Death said:
Cheers everyone


We’ve booked an outward flight to Dusseldorf on Friday September 19th, so trying to do a mixture of new grounds and top Bundesliga games


Friday: Bochum v Fortuna Dusseldorf

Saturday: Cologne v Borussia Monchengladbach

Sunday: Duisburg v FSV Frankfurt

Tuesday: Kaiserslautern v Nurnberg

Wednesday Leverkusen v Mainz or Schalke v Eintracht Frankfurt

Probably return the following morning, but toying with the idea of staying for a few games, depending on whether City draw a German team in the Champions League.
Click to expand...

In Bochum there is a popular pub mile called the Bermuda triangle near the central station, if you want to have a beer after the match. Near Duisburg university there is a pub with 200 beers from all over the world. if you like that kind of stuff (hard to find, but great beers).
Well, two years ago i helped someone on here with a Schalke ticket, that was kind of reserved for foreign fans. But i don´t know, if they are still doing that.
 
Schalker said:
Just for your info
There are still 3000 seats and 200 standing tickets available at the momemt for the match Schalke -Frankfurt on Wednesday 23.09. on members sale
Possibly there are still some available when Free sale starts on Monday 13
Check www.tickets-aufschalke.de

if not there might be still a chance on www.s04-ticketboerse.de/fansale/
prior to the match if you have a bank account in a "Euro" Country.You can buy and sell tickets there Schalke tickets from Fans for Fans
on Face value with a small booking fee.

There is also a ticket market on fansale for Cologne Mainz Nuremberg Braunschweig and St Pauli as far as I know
Check their website.(website in English btw ´:)

and there still is www.schalke-fanclub-uk.com/
Click to expand...

Cheers Mate.
Enjoyed Schalke-Hoffenheim last season, and still to see Schalke lose (apart from City in 2008)
 
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Ruhr said:
In Bochum there is a popular pub mile called the Bermuda triangle near the central station, if you want to have a beer after the match. Near Duisburg university there is a pub with 200 beers from all over the world. if you like that kind of stuff (hard to find, but great beers).
Well, two years ago i helped someone on here with a Schalke ticket, that was kind of reserved for foreign fans. But i don´t know, if they are still doing that.
Click to expand...
Ruhr said:
In Bochum there is a popular pub mile called the Bermuda triangle near the central station, if you want to have a beer after the match. Near Duisburg university there is a pub with 200 beers from all over the world. if you like that kind of stuff (hard to find, but great beers).
Well, two years ago i helped someone on here with a Schalke ticket, that was kind of reserved for foreign fans. But i don´t know, if they are still doing that.
Click to expand...


Funny you should mention the Bermuda Triangle because I was selling the venue to Cptaidan88 in a separate correspondence.

I’ve stayed in Bochum a couple of times, and it seems to go under the radar, even though regular fixtures against Dortmund, Schalke and Leverkusen, have given English football supporters plenty of opportunities to widen their horizons. We'll certainly be staying there if City draw either Leverkusen or Monchengladbach.

Cheers for the Duisburg tip
 
German football average attendances last season


1. Borussia Dortmund 80 463
2. Bayern München 72.882
3. Schalke 04 61.578
4. Hamburger SV 53.252
5. VfB Stuttgart 50.801
6. Borussia Mönchengladbach 50.660
7. Hertha BSC 50.185
8. 1. FC Köln 48.329
9. Eintracht Frankfurt 47.618
10. Hannover 96 43.459

11. Werder Bremen 40.906
12. 1. FC Kaiserslautern 33.013 Bundesliga 2
13. Mainz 05 31.008
14. 1. FC Nürnberg 30.743 Bundesliga 2
15. Fortuna Düsseldorf 29.945 Bundesliga 2
16. Bayer Leverkusen 29.311
17. FC Augsburg 29.165
18. VfL Wolfsburg 28.199
19. TSG Hoffenheim 27.183
20. RB Leipzig 25.025 Bundesliga 2

21. FC St. Pauli 24.718 Bundesliga 2
22. SC Freiburg 23.805
23. Dynamo Dresden 22.784 League 3
24. 1860 München 21.918 Bundesliga 2
25. Eintracht Braunschweig 21.610 Bundesliga 2
26. Union Berlin 19.142 Bundesliga 2
27. Karlsruher SC 17.381 Bundesliga 2
28. VfL Bochum 16.850 Bundesliga 2
29. SC Paderborn 14.859
30. Arminia Bielefeld 14.552 League 3

31. SV Darmstadt 98 14.135 Bundesliga 2
32. MSV Duisburg 13.474 League 3
33. 1. FC Heidenheim 12.582 League 3
34. Greuther Fürth 11.793 Bundesliga 2
35. Alemannia Aachen 10.724 League 4
36. Hansa Rostock 9.958 League 3
37. Ingolstadt 04 9.932 Bundesliga 2
38. Preußen Münster 9.143 League 3
39. Erzgebirge Aue 9.112 Bundesliga 2

40. VfL Osnabrück 8.722 League 3
41. 1 FC Magdeburg 8.576 League 4
42. RW Essen 8.208 League 4
43. VfR Aalen 7.575 Bundesliga 2
44. Energie Cottbus 7.535 League 3
45. Hallescher FC 7.242 League 3
46. FSV Frankfurt 6.631 Bundesliga 2
47. Kickers Offenbach 6.364 League 4
48. Holstein Kiel 6.222 League 3
49. SV Sandhausen 5.903 Bundesliga 2
50. RW Erfurt 5.819 League 3

51. Chemnitzer FC 5.807 League 3
52. Stuttgarter Kickers 4.420 League 3
53. 1. FC Saarbrücken 4.398 League 4
54. Jahn Regensburg 3.669 League 3
55. Carl Zeiss Jena 3.591 League 4
56. Wehen Wiesbaden 3.513 League 3
57. Borussia Dortmund U 23 2.900 League 3
58. SV Waldhof Mannheim 2.892 League 4
59. Lok Leipzig 2.658 League 5

60. Spvgg Unterhaching 2.539 League 3
61. RW Oberhausen 2.533 League 4
62. Würzburger Kickers 2.482 League 4
63. Sonnenhof Großaspach League 3
64. SV Babelsberg 2.326 League 4
65. Fortuna Köln 2.197 League 3
66. Uerdingen 05 2.180 League 4
67. Turbine Potsdam (Women Bundesliga) 2.127
68. Wuppertaler SV 2.105 League 5
69. 1. FFC Frankfurt (Women Bundesliga) 1.998
70. Hessen Kassel 1.782 League 4

71. FSV Zwickau 1.775 League 4
72. FC Homburg 1.725 League 4
73. VfB Lübeck 1.723 League 4
74. BFC Dynamo 1.701 League 4
75. Schweinfurt 05 1.671 League 4
76. VfL Wolfsburg (Women Bundesliga) 1.669
77. 1860 München U23 1.628 League 4
78. Eintracht Trier 1.532 League 4
79. VfB Oldenburg 1.490 League 4
80. Bayern München U 23 1.451 League 4

81. Spfr Siegen 1.445 League 4
82. SV Meppen 1.389 League 4
83. Wacker Burghausen 1.356 League 4
84. SV Elversberg 1.319 League 4
85. Hannover 96 U 23 1.292 League 4
86. FK Pirmasens 1.282 League 4
87. Tus Koblenz 1.257 League 4
88. Chemie Leipzig 1.237 League 6
89. SV Rödinghausen 1.216 League 4
90. Wormatia Worms 1.200 League 4

91. Spvgg Bayreuth 1.165 League 4
92. Mainz 05 U 23 1.163 League 3
93. Bayern München (Women Bundesliga) 1.152
94. Union Berlin U 23 1.103 League 4
95. SSV Reutlingen 1.088 League 5
96. RW Ahlen 1.069 League 5
97. Viktoria Köln 1.068 League 4
98. VFC Plauen 1.039 League 4
99. (99.) SGS Essen (Women Bundesliga) 1.037
100. (92.) VfB Stuttgart U23 1.034 League 3
 
Ruhr said:
German football average attendances last season


1. Borussia Dortmund 80 463
2. Bayern München 72.882
3. Schalke 04 61.578
4. Hamburger SV 53.252
5. VfB Stuttgart 50.801
6. Borussia Mönchengladbach 50.660
7. Hertha BSC 50.185
8. 1. FC Köln 48.329
9. Eintracht Frankfurt 47.618
10. Hannover 96 43.459

11. Werder Bremen 40.906
12. 1. FC Kaiserslautern 33.013 Bundesliga 2
13. Mainz 05 31.008
14. 1. FC Nürnberg 30.743 Bundesliga 2
15. Fortuna Düsseldorf 29.945 Bundesliga 2
16. Bayer Leverkusen 29.311
17. FC Augsburg 29.165
18. VfL Wolfsburg 28.199
19. TSG Hoffenheim 27.183
20. RB Leipzig 25.025 Bundesliga 2

21. FC St. Pauli 24.718 Bundesliga 2
22. SC Freiburg 23.805
23. Dynamo Dresden 22.784 League 3
24. 1860 München 21.918 Bundesliga 2
25. Eintracht Braunschweig 21.610 Bundesliga 2
26. Union Berlin 19.142 Bundesliga 2
27. Karlsruher SC 17.381 Bundesliga 2
28. VfL Bochum 16.850 Bundesliga 2
29. SC Paderborn 14.859
30. Arminia Bielefeld 14.552 League 3

31. SV Darmstadt 98 14.135 Bundesliga 2
32. MSV Duisburg 13.474 League 3
33. 1. FC Heidenheim 12.582 League 3
34. Greuther Fürth 11.793 Bundesliga 2
35. Alemannia Aachen 10.724 League 4
36. Hansa Rostock 9.958 League 3
37. Ingolstadt 04 9.932 Bundesliga 2
38. Preußen Münster 9.143 League 3
39. Erzgebirge Aue 9.112 Bundesliga 2

40. VfL Osnabrück 8.722 League 3
41. 1 FC Magdeburg 8.576 League 4
42. RW Essen 8.208 League 4
43. VfR Aalen 7.575 Bundesliga 2
44. Energie Cottbus 7.535 League 3
45. Hallescher FC 7.242 League 3
46. FSV Frankfurt 6.631 Bundesliga 2
47. Kickers Offenbach 6.364 League 4
48. Holstein Kiel 6.222 League 3
49. SV Sandhausen 5.903 Bundesliga 2
50. RW Erfurt 5.819 League 3

51. Chemnitzer FC 5.807 League 3
52. Stuttgarter Kickers 4.420 League 3
53. 1. FC Saarbrücken 4.398 League 4
54. Jahn Regensburg 3.669 League 3
55. Carl Zeiss Jena 3.591 League 4
56. Wehen Wiesbaden 3.513 League 3
57. Borussia Dortmund U 23 2.900 League 3
58. SV Waldhof Mannheim 2.892 League 4
59. Lok Leipzig 2.658 League 5

60. Spvgg Unterhaching 2.539 League 3
61. RW Oberhausen 2.533 League 4
62. Würzburger Kickers 2.482 League 4
63. Sonnenhof Großaspach League 3
64. SV Babelsberg 2.326 League 4
65. Fortuna Köln 2.197 League 3
66. Uerdingen 05 2.180 League 4
67. Turbine Potsdam (Women Bundesliga) 2.127
68. Wuppertaler SV 2.105 League 5
69. 1. FFC Frankfurt (Women Bundesliga) 1.998
70. Hessen Kassel 1.782 League 4

71. FSV Zwickau 1.775 League 4
72. FC Homburg 1.725 League 4
73. VfB Lübeck 1.723 League 4
74. BFC Dynamo 1.701 League 4
75. Schweinfurt 05 1.671 League 4
76. VfL Wolfsburg (Women Bundesliga) 1.669
77. 1860 München U23 1.628 League 4
78. Eintracht Trier 1.532 League 4
79. VfB Oldenburg 1.490 League 4
80. Bayern München U 23 1.451 League 4

81. Spfr Siegen 1.445 League 4
82. SV Meppen 1.389 League 4
83. Wacker Burghausen 1.356 League 4
84. SV Elversberg 1.319 League 4
85. Hannover 96 U 23 1.292 League 4
86. FK Pirmasens 1.282 League 4
87. Tus Koblenz 1.257 League 4
88. Chemie Leipzig 1.237 League 6
89. SV Rödinghausen 1.216 League 4
90. Wormatia Worms 1.200 League 4

91. Spvgg Bayreuth 1.165 League 4
92. Mainz 05 U 23 1.163 League 3
93. Bayern München (Women Bundesliga) 1.152
94. Union Berlin U 23 1.103 League 4
95. SSV Reutlingen 1.088 League 5
96. RW Ahlen 1.069 League 5
97. Viktoria Köln 1.068 League 4
98. VFC Plauen 1.039 League 4
99. (99.) SGS Essen (Women Bundesliga) 1.037
100. (92.) VfB Stuttgart U23 1.034 League 3
Click to expand...



So despite being a relatively new club, (the German version of New York City?), Red Bull Leipzig are already averaging 25,000.

Are they simply disillusioned Lokomotive Leipzig supporters, or was there always a great untapped potential?
 
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Scaring Europe to Death said:
So where dp




So despite being a relatively new club, (the German version of New York City?), Red Bull Leipzig are already averaging 25,000.

Are they simply disillusioned Lokomotive Leipzig supporters, or was there always a great untapped potential?
Click to expand...
Got to be untapped potential. Weren't both Leipzig clubs famed for being right wing or something? That must have put off loads of people.
 
Both traditional Leipzig clubs went bankrupt. Lok restarted in division 8 or so and soon attracted right wing hooligans. Chemie fans were not right wing, but the club was divided into a fan club and one of the former management. Lok is playing in division 5, Chemie in division 6. Leipzig and the area around has a population of 650,000. It was the best place for a project like the Red Bull one. Considering the size of the city, 25,000 is not even that much. Hoffenheim had this as soon as they went to the Bundesliga (mostly from the city of Heidelberg). I think, most of those Leipzig fans didn´t go to football matches before.
 
Alex-MCFC said:
Got to be untapped potential. Weren't both Leipzig clubs famed for being right wing or something? That must have put off loads of people.
Click to expand...

Untapped potential. The first German champions came from Leipzig (VfB, now Lokomotive Leipzig) and the German FA was founded there. The old Zentralstadion (inside which they built the new Zentralstadion, or Red Bull Arena as it's now called) was the largest stadium in Germany, and usually hosted European games contested by Lok or Chemie Leipzig.
Big crowds are nothing new in Leipzig football, but the union of the two Germanies led to a crisis in the eastern part and football really suffered.
As most of you know, I lived in Leipzig for 12 years before moving to sunnier climes, and I did quite a bit of research on the state of football in the city.
Brief history: Chemie Leipzig were sponsored by chemical firms, Lok by the railways. The GDR regime at one time ordered all the players from Chemie to move to Lok, and the rivalry between the two stems from the regime's meddling in affairs, and the popular view that Lok were the city's favoured club. After the wall came down, both clubs suffered financial difficulties, right-wing Nazis began to attach themselves to Lok, while left-wing radicals started following Chemie. Both clubs went bust on many occasions in the 90s and 2000s, also changing names - Lok back to Vfb, Chemie to Sachsen. Crowds plummeted, although the 'current' Lok's first game in the local leagues attracted almost 13,000 fans to the new Zentralstadion - I was one of them.
Lok continue to attract the wrong type of headlines due to their followers, while Sachsen refused Red Bull's offer to buy them out. Sachsen went bust, and two new clubs were formed.
The potential has always been there in Leipzig, but most football fans I know in the city refused to attend games due to the political rivalry and regular crowd trouble.
Then Red Bull came along, formed a new club with emphasis on attracting families and children to the games, and they work with all the local schools and amateur clubs.
No matter what fans of 'Traditionsvereine' think of RB Leipzig, they have at least restored some footballing pride to the city.
 
Innsbruckblue said:
Untapped potential. The first German champions came from Leipzig (VfB, now Lokomotive Leipzig) and the German FA was founded there. The old Zentralstadion (inside which they built the new Zentralstadion, or Red Bull Arena as it's now called) was the largest stadium in Germany, and usually hosted European games contested by Lok or Chemie Leipzig.
Big crowds are nothing new in Leipzig football, but the union of the two Germanies led to a crisis in the eastern part and football really suffered.
As most of you know, I lived in Leipzig for 12 years before moving to sunnier climes, and I did quite a bit of research on the state of football in the city.
Brief history: Chemie Leipzig were sponsored by chemical firms, Lok by the railways. The GDR regime at one time ordered all the players from Chemie to move to Lok, and the rivalry between the two stems from the regime's meddling in affairs, and the popular view that Lok were the city's favoured club. After the wall came down, both clubs suffered financial difficulties, right-wing Nazis began to attach themselves to Lok, while left-wing radicals started following Chemie. Both clubs went bust on many occasions in the 90s and 2000s, also changing names - Lok back to Vfb, Chemie to Sachsen. Crowds plummeted, although the 'current' Lok's first game in the local leagues attracted almost 13,000 fans to the new Zentralstadion - I was one of them.
Lok continue to attract the wrong type of headlines due to their followers, while Sachsen refused Red Bull's offer to buy them out. Sachsen went bust, and two new clubs were formed.
The potential has always been there in Leipzig, but most football fans I know in the city refused to attend games due to the political rivalry and regular crowd trouble.
Then Red Bull came along, formed a new club with emphasis on attracting families and children to the games, and they work with all the local schools and amateur clubs.
No matter what fans of 'Traditionsvereine' think of RB Leipzig, they have at least restored some footballing pride to the city.
Click to expand...

Lets not start the argument again.

I'm going to the Stuttgart v City game, but the day before I'll be making a trip to Kaiserslautern. I remember watching them play on TV in Europe (I think it was the Champions League) when Rösler went there, and I like the design of the stadium. I wasn't aware until a few years ago, but I read that they were promoted to the Bundesliga and then won it the following season, and I think they are the only club to do that. At one stage I thought they could become my German team, but to my horror I realised the translation of their nickname is Red Devils and they sing YNWA. Completely ruins it.

Still, I'm looking forward to visiting the stadium. Can anyone recommend what to do in the city? Should be there about 1ish and the match doesn't kick off until 8.30.

I think I'll also manage to get to Karlsruhe for their game against St Pauli. Can't really drink too much at that one as I'll have to drive home from the airport later that evening, but again - is there anything I should look out for there?
 
Innsbruckblue said:
No matter what fans of 'Traditionsvereine' think of RB Leipzig, they have at least restored some footballing pride to the city.
Click to expand...

Oh dear, I am moved to tears, seriously, PLUS they have achieved unanimity amongst ALL FANS of "Traditionsvereine" in their hatred and contempt for RB Leipzig, who else can claim anything close to this effect? But, oh, the viciousness of a perfect marketing machinery: We don't like it, but we are part of it- probably even more than the RB Leipzig customers with their newly purchased pride .
 
Here we go again....


I actually don't like Kaiserslautern for their action towards the Schanzer fans at the last game of the season. They strike me as a Liverpool-esc we have history so we automatically have a divine right to be good.
 
@cptaidan88, @Rhineland

You guys are touchy this morning! I had absolutely no intention of starting any argument again. When I said that RB had restored some pride to the city, I meant due to the hooliganism that had occurred over the previous 20 years, and that it's now possible to take your kids to a game without fear of being attacked. It was a response to a question asked by another poster, as to the size of their crowds, etc, and I gave my own view based on my experience of living there.
I attended Lok and Chemie games. I was at ATSV Wurzen against Lok, when the Lok fans invaded the pitch, attacked the players and trashed half the town. I was at FC Sachsen when their fans attacked a black player playing for Hallescher FC. This no longer happens, as RB has now made it family entertainment. Whether you agree with it or not (or like or not), it is quite an achievement to attract 25,000 fans to their games in a city that has traditionally been so divided.
Contrary to belief on this forum, I am NOT an RB fan (been to a few games, find it difficult to get into supporting them fully), but I am mightily impressed by their work in Leipzig. A lot of my mates have season tickets for them, having switched from Lok (even from Chemnitzer FC).
I don't actually have a favourite German team, although I will be going to the Werder-1860 game on Wednesday here in Austria (Werder is Mrs IBK's team).
I have no problem with 'Traditionsvereine' - I just hate the word. Sanctimonious bullshit that you hear constantly on German TV, as if a football club is only worth supporting if it has ISTREE.
So what if RBL is only a marketing tool for a drinks company? So what if they pull out of Leipzig and the city returns to the footballing wilderness? At least let the people enjoy the ride.
Or, why exactly do they arouse so much fear in fans other clubs? What are you afraid of?
 
Innsbruckblue said:
@cptaidan88, @Rhineland

You guys are touchy this morning! I had absolutely no intention of starting any argument again. When I said that RB had restored some pride to the city, I meant due to the hooliganism that had occurred over the previous 20 years, and that it's now possible to take your kids to a game without fear of being attacked. It was a response to a question asked by another poster, as to the size of their crowds, etc, and I gave my own view based on my experience of living there.
I attended Lok and Chemie games. I was at ATSV Wurzen against Lok, when the Lok fans invaded the pitch, attacked the players and trashed half the town. I was at FC Sachsen when their fans attacked a black player playing for Hallescher FC. This no longer happens, as RB has now made it family entertainment. Whether you agree with it or not (or like or not), it is quite an achievement to attract 25,000 fans to their games in a city that has traditionally been so divided.
Contrary to belief on this forum, I am NOT an RB fan (been to a few games, find it difficult to get into supporting them fully), but I am mightily impressed by their work in Leipzig. A lot of my mates have season tickets for them, having switched from Lok (even from Chemnitzer FC).
I don't actually have a favourite German team, although I will be going to the Werder-1860 game on Wednesday here in Austria (Werder is Mrs IBK's team).
I have no problem with 'Traditionsvereine' - I just hate the word. Sanctimonious bullshit that you hear constantly on German TV, as if a football club is only worth supporting if it has ISTREE.
So what if RBL is only a marketing tool for a drinks company? So what if they pull out of Leipzig and the city returns to the footballing wilderness? At least let the people enjoy the ride.
Or, why exactly do they arouse so much fear in fans other clubs? What are you afraid of?
Click to expand...

I think you misunderstood. My comment was simply I didn't think we should start the argument again.

I've acknowledged in the past the good they've done. Although that's not to say I agree with what Red Bull have done.

Lets all agree to move on, as I don't think we're all going to agree on the subject any time soon.
 
Sometimes I really don't get people on this forum.
A poster asks a genuine question as to crowd sizes at one football club i Germany.
I respond to the question, due to having experience of said city, with no intention of doing anything other than giving an answer.
One poster childishly attacks my post, another accuses me of trying to start an argument.

It really is pointless trying to post anything on the Bundesliga thread.

Congratulations, guys. You can have the thread all to yourselves.
 
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