Rony Lopes

[Blue Smarties]

I really hope this is true, come on Rony!

 

[.A.]

He did, but not at a top club. That is the difference. We don't have the luxury that a mid table club like Liverpool has.

Liverpool nearly won the league with a teenage Sterling and Jon Flanagan at leftback; this 'we are under pressure to win therefore we must not integrate youth' excuse is flawed. Guardiola's Barcelona replaced the likes of Toure, Henry and Eto'o with Pedro and Busquests, and went on to become arguably the best team to ever play the game.

Look how Rodgers has integrated Joe Gomez at leftback, ahead of a £20m Spaniard in Alberto Moreno; Pellegrini would never have the bollocks to do such a thing. I'd have liked us to do something similar with Denayer at rightback this season ahead of Sagna, a 30-something who is finally producing decent performances for us, but is doing nothing Denayer couldn't and offers nothing to our future.

The same applies to Navas; his only contribution is 'putting a shift in' and staying wide to stretch the game. He's a 29 year old winger who doesn't score nor assist many for a team that's always in control of games; the likes of Lopes and Barker would gladly match his work rate in return for the invaluable experience of first-team football, and would likely be more productive too, which wouldn't exactly take much.

We have a world-class spine of the team, and the passengers of the past few seasons like Navas, Garcia and Fernando could seamlessly have been replaced by academy kids; towards the end of last season we got to a point where we weren't gonna win the league nor finish outside the top 3, yet would still start/bring on Lampard and Milner, two players who were leaving a few weeks later. Those minutes should have been granted to the best EDS talent as a reward and incentive for future improvement.

Meritocracy is key; it's no coincidence that teams who historically put faith in youth win more. Not every kid will come into the team and be a fundamental element of it, but they can become valuable squad players and provide the kind of identity that imported mediocrity can't.

Great coaches know that identity, to a certain extent, eclipses overall collective talent. Ferguson opted to integrate Welbeck, Cleverley, Evans, Fletcher, O'Shea and Brown in as utility players; none of them were great players and have mainly gone on to mid-table clubs, but they were great TEAM players who were cultivated by their academy. Juventus are the same, and Barcelona were the purest example of it until they sold their soul to Qatar.

As good as our academy is, not many we produce will eclipse the talent and potential of Denayer and Lopes, so if they can't make the breakthrough, not many will.

To harvest the potential of the CFA, we need a manager who is both interested in youth integration, and secure enough in his ability as a coach to cultivate talent. Mourinho is just as bad as Pellegrini in that regard.

Look at the football Roberto Martinez has Everton playing with a squad of young talent and limited ageing old pros; given our squad, would he achieve less than Pellegrini has? On the flip side, could Pelle eclipse his work with the current Everton squad? Obviously Guardiola would be the best 'holistic' candidate, but if it doesn't come off i'd rather we put faith in someone like Martinez with an immediate mandate to kick-start a new era of youth integration, with an agenda of long-term success.

 

[Stretfordian_Blue]

Liverpool nearly won the league with a teenage Sterling and Jon Flanagan at leftback; this 'we are under pressure to win therefore we must not integrate youth' excuse is flawed. Guardiola's Barcelona replaced the likes of Toure, Henry and Eto'o with Pedro and Busquests, and went on to become arguably the best team to ever play the game.

Look how Rodgers has (had to) integrate Joe Gomez at leftback, ahead of a £20m Spaniard in Alberto Moreno(because the latter is shit.); Pellegrini would never have the bollocks to do such a thing(never get himself into the situation where he has to.). I'd have liked us to do something similar with Denayer at rightback(what the fuck?) this season ahead of Sagna, a 30-something who is finally producing decent performances for us, but is doing nothing Denayer couldn't and offers nothing to our future.

The same applies to Navas; his only contribution is 'putting a shift in' and staying wide to stretch the game (so he's quite useful actually?). He's a 29 year old winger who doesn't score nor assist many for a team that's always in control of games; the likes of Lopes and Barker would gladly match his work rate ( so would I?) in return for the invaluable experience of first-team football, and would likely be more productive too(based on?), which wouldn't exactly take much.

We have a world-class spine of the team, and the passengers of the past few seasons like Navas, Garcia and Fernando could seamlessly have been replaced by academy kids; towards the end of last season we got to a point where we weren't gonna win the league nor finish outside the top 3, yet would still start/bring on Lampard and Milner, two players who were leaving a few weeks later. Those minutes should have been granted to the best EDS talent as a reward and incentive for future improvement.

Meritocracy is key; it's no coincidence that teams who historically put faith in youth win more ( RAG! Nothing at all to base this on, Real Madrid,City,Chelsea etc have done alright recently without playing Joe Gomez or Jon Flanagan.). Not every kid will come into the team and be a fundamental element of it, but they can become valuable squad players and provide the kind of identity that imported mediocrity can't.

Great coaches know that identity, to a certain extent, eclipses overall collective talent. Ferguson opted to integrate Welbeck, Cleverley, Evans, Fletcher, O'Shea and Brown in as utility players; none of them were great players and have mainly gone on to mid-table clubs, but they were great TEAM players (HAHAHA! This is sick reading.)who were cultivated by their academy. Juventus are the same, and Barcelona were the purest example of it until they sold their soul to Qatar.

As good as our academy is, not many we produce will eclipse the talent and potential of Denayer and Lopes, so if they can't make the breakthrough, not many will.

To harvest the potential of the CFA, we need a manager who is both interested in youth integration, and secure enough in his ability as a coach to cultivate talent. Mourinho is just as bad as Pellegrini in that regard. (No, they just both have access to world class players who actually substantially improve the team.)

Look at the football Roberto Martinez has Everton playing (We did, 5 days ago. Navas ironically was one of the key players in dominating the game.) with a squad of young talent and limited ageing old pros; given our squad, would he achieve less than Pellegrini has? On the flip side, could Pelle eclipse his work with the current Everton squad? Obviously Guardiola would be the best 'holistic' candidate, but if it doesn't come off i'd rather we put faith in someone like Martinez ( Everton finished 11th last season!!?) with an immediate mandate to kick-start a new era of youth integration(yeah fantastic,I'd love to abandon challenging on four fronts and become another Everton.), with an agenda of long-term success(why? we've had that period and it's coming NOW!).

This post is one of the stupidest I've ever seen.

 

[blue banks]

@.A. I know you'll get slaughtered by many on here for suggesting Martinez as then man to take this club forward but, fundamentally, it's hard to argue with your points. Good post.

 

[Centurions]

As good as our academy is, not many we produce will eclipse the talent and potential of Denayer and Lopes, so if they can't make the breakthrough, not many will.

I can only believe that you've not watched the youth teams if you really think that, there are some supremely talented youngsters in there.

 

[Neville Kneville]

People also on Bluemoon never understand also that to break into the firs team there is a minimum standard. Maybe our academy has not yet got anyone at that standard. All those who will come back and some of these kids are, are not as qualified to make that call as our coaching staff.

As for being a laughing stock of the country - really! there are many young kids in the world who would give anything to receive the coaching we would give them.

I get this perception that many think anyone coming through our academy is a shoe in into the first team. Why are you so sure it is Pellers who doesn't have the bottle rather than PV or others saying these guys arn't yet ready?

Well your perception may be true from the point of view of those who never watch the academy players, but those that actually do, tend to have a perfectly sensible approach to it, which is that none of those players are guaranteed to make it at City, but about ten of them are good enough to deserve being given the chance to try & do so & that, contrary to the ridiculous nonsense we often read on here, giving a young player a few mins off the bench to see if he takes to the first team, is not some kind of form of Russian roulette, likely to murder our chance of winning trophies.

Most other teams do it that way & that's a fact. No reason City can't, except we are loaded, so we don't have to.

It's by choice.

 

[Stretfordian_Blue]

Anonymous is talking rubbish.



Good luck to the lad.

 

[blue banks]

Anonymous is talking rubbish.



Good luck to the lad.

Well, he never said he wasn't going to be playing for Monaco this season. He claims it's a loan deal, with Rony signing a contract extension with us. So, he may yet be proved right.

 

[blueyorkie]

Anonymous is talking rubbish.



Good luck to the lad.

That doesn't necessarily contradict the rumour about Rony signing a contract

 

[Neville Kneville]

What folk like Damocles seem to forget when they proclaim the CFA is a 'laughing stock' is, Lopes joined City at what 15-16? Enjoyed fantastic facilities, facilities of which since have greatly improved made the first team squad on a few occassions, even started a cup semi. Earned a nice move to the top flight in France on loan and then on the back of that a reported £8/£9 million move to Monaco, all before he's 20. That sort of career from 15-19 sounds about as good as you can have to me, especially as I doubt Lopes is a City fan. Yes, it doesn't look like he's made the grade with us, but he's set for life and he's not 20 yet. I'm assuming he's signed a decent contract in Monaco so that should take him to 24/25.

Denayer is 20 with a very good 5 year deal at City. Learning off World class players and I assume playing with his national team captain is a dream. He's not 21 till next June, and looks set for a very good loan move. At worst he will earn a big transfer away from City at best a long career at City.

What Damocles et al forget, these young lads are not City fans, the are young lads who's goal is to become a professional footballer. I'm sure they'd love to play for City, but I'm also sure they'll be happy to use City's CFA to get them as far as possible in the game.

So as long as the CFA is seeing 'graduates' making multi million pound moves to top flight clubs, young kids will see how good the CFA is for your career.
If we are producing 3,4,5 players of the level of Lopes every couple of years then we're doing a fantastic job. If one in 20 academy 'stars' make it to the first team, the other 19 get good moves to top flight football, that to me is successful.

Most of these young lads don't dream of playing for City, they dream of playing football at the highest level. City are offering that opportunity.

As the power that be have said, it could take a good few years before we see real fruit from the CFA.

People get called flappers with regards to results, transfers transfer fees. Is it not 'flapping' if you call the CFA a 'laughing stock' because the first few half decent youth to come out of it haven't made it with City? We are all pretty much agree that Lopes & Denayer are the only ones from the CFA that are anywhere near close to the standard required, yet Lopes is sold, and we've failed.

If a £8 million move to Monaco is evidence of a waste of time, and Denayer getting a 5 year deal is the evidence, I'm sure we are doing something right.

To consider the CFA a laughing stock this early is perhaps the biggest case of 'flapping' this site has ever seen.

Give it a couple of years will you.

Damocles actually said that some of these lads are signings who will 'not be hanging around on the bench', ie 'not City fans but lads who's goal is to become professional footballers'. How did you misinterpret that ?

As for 'give it a couple of years' we have. We now have a bunch of players ready to begin their senior City careers,by being introduced gradually into the first team setup, like other teams do. Only instead, they are being farmed out on loan to possibly learn bad habits from inferior coaches/players.

How do I know this is not the best way ? Because the bloke in charge, ie Patrick Vieira, has said so. He wants the players to stay under City's guidence wherever possible. So these loans are not desirable at all.

Hopefully it's down to Pellegrini fearing for his job & if we succeed this season, he'll grow a pair, if he's still around next season.

 

[Neville Kneville]

I can only believe that you've not watched the youth teams if you really think that, there are some supremely talented youngsters in there.

No defenders better players than Denayer. Some better than Lopes maybe, but he is the first cab off the rank & should have been used.

 

[squirtyflower]

What folk like Damocles seem to forget when they proclaim the CFA is a 'laughing stock' is, Lopes joined City at what 15-16? Enjoyed fantastic facilities, facilities of which since have greatly improved made the first team squad on a few occassions, even started a cup semi. Earned a nice move to the top flight in France on loan and then on the back of that a reported £8/£9 million move to Monaco, all before he's 20. That sort of career from 15-19 sounds about as good as you can have to me, especially as I doubt Lopes is a City fan. Yes, it doesn't look like he's made the grade with us, but he's set for life and he's not 20 yet. I'm assuming he's signed a decent contract in Monaco so that should take him to 24/25.

Denayer is 20 with a very good 5 year deal at City. Learning off World class players and I assume playing with his national team captain is a dream. He's not 21 till next June, and looks set for a very good loan move. At worst he will earn a big transfer away from City at best a long career at City.

What Damocles et al forget, these young lads are not City fans, the are young lads who's goal is to become a professional footballer. I'm sure they'd love to play for City, but I'm also sure they'll be happy to use City's CFA to get them as far as possible in the game.

So as long as the CFA is seeing 'graduates' making multi million pound moves to top flight clubs, young kids will see how good the CFA is for your career.
If we are producing 3,4,5 players of the level of Lopes every couple of years then we're doing a fantastic job. If one in 20 academy 'stars' make it to the first team, the other 19 get good moves to top flight football, that to me is successful.

Most of these young lads don't dream of playing for City, they dream of playing football at the highest level. City are offering that opportunity.

As the power that be have said, it could take a good few years before we see real fruit from the CFA.

People get called flappers with regards to results, transfers transfer fees. Is it not 'flapping' if you call the CFA a 'laughing stock' because the first few half decent youth to come out of it haven't made it with City? We are all pretty much agree that Lopes & Denayer are the only ones from the CFA that are anywhere near close to the standard required, yet Lopes is sold, and we've failed.

If a £8 million move to Monaco is evidence of a waste of time, and Denayer getting a 5 year deal is the evidence, I'm sure we are doing something right.

To consider the CFA a laughing stock this early is perhaps the biggest case of 'flapping' this site has ever seen.

Give it a couple of years will you.

Excellent post
I'm not convinced Lopes has what it takes, and I've said so before, but some of the younger lads certainly have.

 

[squirtyflower]

I can only believe that you've not watched the youth teams if you really think that, there are some supremely talented youngsters in there.

Spot on
The quality of players seems to be improving as we go down the ranks, not getting worse. And even better is that some of them are actually local lads too.

 

[MeatHunterrr]

To be honest if we keep getting £9m for our decent youth players and keep buying world class players like Otamendi, Sterling and De Bruyne, I'm not complaining.

Agree

 

[mosssideblue]

This post is one of the stupidest I've ever seen.

+1

 

[mosssideblue]

Damocles actually said that some of these lads are signings who will 'not be hanging around on the bench', ie 'not City fans but lads who's goal is to become professional footballers'. How did you misinterpret that ?

As for 'give it a couple of years' we have. We now have a bunch of players ready to begin their senior City careers,by being introduced gradually into the first team setup, like other teams do. Only instead, they are being farmed out on loan to possibly learn bad habits from inferior coaches/players.

How do I know this is not the best way ? Because the bloke in charge, ie Patrick Vieira, has said so. He wants the players to stay under City's guidence wherever possible. So these loans are not desirable at all.

Hopefully it's down to Pellegrini fearing for his job & if we succeed this season, he'll grow a pair, if he's still around next season.

Are you basing your argument on what you believe is happening behind doors or what you know is happening?
Who says we have a bunch ready for their introduction? you and those that watch the youth or the professional coaches?
How do you know specifically it is Pellers who is responsible for not introducing youth?

 

[schfc6]

Damocles actually said that some of these lads are signings who will 'not be hanging around on the bench', ie 'not City fans but lads who's goal is to become professional footballers'. How did you misinterpret that ?

As for 'give it a couple of years' we have. We now have a bunch of players ready to begin their senior City careers,by being introduced gradually into the first team setup, like other teams do. Only instead, they are being farmed out on loan to possibly learn bad habits from inferior coaches/players.

How do I know this is not the best way ? Because the bloke in charge, ie Patrick Vieira, has said so. He wants the players to stay under City's guidence wherever possible. So these loans are not desirable at all.

Hopefully it's down to Pellegrini fearing for his job & if we succeed this season, he'll grow a pair, if he's still around next season.

The 'laughing stock' bit to answer your first point.

To address your second point. We have one possibly two if we don't include Nacho even close to the first team standard. One, Lopes who in my opinion isn't good enough. The second Denayer has just signed a five year deal and we are looking to offer him to top clubs on loan. I know you don't agree with this, but he is too young yet for City. 20 years and 2 months 99 times out of a 100 is too young for centre backs anywhere, let alone centre back in a team looking for PL & CL glory.

And your 3rd, as much as I admire Viera, I believe in Txiki more.

Point 4, I agree, blooding any youth will be very hard at the moment. Pressure to succed is so great. Hence us or the CFA needing a few years to start to deliver, just as we have been told by the powers that be. In 2-3 years time, hopefully with another title or two, a couple of good runs in the CL will help relieve the pressure to succed, couple this with hopefully a better quality and more choice from the CFA.

Believe me if you like, or don't but I have it first hand from a first team member that the players, the staff have all pretty much identified Angelino as the first player they expect to really challenge for a first team spot. For the record he also said Nacho is far and away better than any 18 year old they seen. I'm not an ITK, I've never been given any transfer info, nor would I ask, some info is just volunteered, how highly Angelino is rated is that info.

As you say, we now have a bunch of players ready to challenge, so surely as just one as gone or looks to be going, is it not a bit early to be labelling anything a laughing stock.

If one of the projected 'first batch' don't make it, in my opinion it's still too early to flap.

 

[domalino]

Anonymous is talking rubbish.



Good luck to the lad.

Shame.

On a side note, Monaco's training ground is absolutely stunning. I'm incredibly jealous. If only they had decent crowds.

 

[PragueBlue]

Damocles actually said that some of these lads are signings who will 'not be hanging around on the bench', ie 'not City fans but lads who's goal is to become professional footballers'. How did you misinterpret that ?

As for 'give it a couple of years' we have. We now have a bunch of players ready to begin their senior City careers,by being introduced gradually into the first team setup, like other teams do. Only instead, they are being farmed out on loan to possibly learn bad habits from inferior coaches/players.

How do I know this is not the best way ? Because the bloke in charge, ie Patrick Vieira, has said so. He wants the players to stay under City's guidence wherever possible. So these loans are not desirable at all.

Hopefully it's down to Pellegrini fearing for his job & if we succeed this season, he'll grow a pair, if he's still around next season.

Pellegrini has to keep the squad happy. If everyone is fit and he keeps the same team as at present, he'll have the likes of Caballero, Clichy, Zaba, MD, Otamendi, Fernando, Delph, Nasri, KDB (probably) and Bony all wanting a place in the starting line up or at least on the bench. Some are going to miss out anyway but if he sticks a couple of younger players on the bench/pitch instead of quality, tried and tested international players, it's likely to lead to discontent amongst the senior players. We'll need some of those players to step up during the season to cover for injuries and suspensions but how are they supposed to do that if they haven't had any match time?

I keep reading that we can put a couple on the bench and bring them on when we're 4-0 up or similar but what if it's a tight game and Pellegrini needs to bring on someone to change things but can't because he doesn't have that player on the bench? I also don't think giving young players a few minutes in games we are winning comfortably would be that useful as we tend to take our foot off the pedal at that stage anyway. They'd be better served playing regularly on loan somewhere.

Pellegrini no doubt sees those players day in and day out in training and knows if they are ready or not, or even likely to make the grade. Our academy lads are just going to have to be patient and hopefully pick up a few opportunities here and there. If they don't believe that they are good enough for our team, then it would be best for all if they moved on. If they do believe they are good enough but not yet quite ready, they should do as Denayer has done and sign and new contract and get a couple of seasons on loan under their belts and then wait for their chance. If they're good enough, they'll make it.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Are you basing your argument on what you believe is happening behind doors or what you know is happening?
Who says we have a bunch ready for their introduction? you and those that watch the youth or the professional coaches?
How do you know specifically it is Pellers who is responsible for not introducing youth?

I don't understand the first part of the question re what's happening, but Denayer & Lopes not being used at first team level, at all, even given a chance to force their way in, is what I mean 'is happening' not behind 'closed doors' right in front of us.

How do I judge the standard ? Through watching players development over many years & comparing the standard reached by players of varying ability compared to what City have currently . Some of this group will make it to a decent level. Some may make it all the way. Some may be world class stars. Neither myself, nor Pellegrini nor Vieira know that as an exact science. If they were to tell you they do, they would be lying, as would I, it's all about opinion.

What I do know, is that based on all the years I've been watching youth/kids football, City have assembled a group with some fantastic potential. Many may slip by without taking the chance, but if none of them make it, we have fucked up royally, as at least a few should, there are just too many, for all to fail.