Attacks in Paris

whp.blue said:
In the coming weeks and months I feel it will be more apt to philosophise over Guilt by association as this may be used more in the war against terror.
People using mosques that are found guilty of preaching hate could and should be prosecuted under the joint enterprise laws.
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People should be prosecuted for breaking the law , for example a pub could be used for a gang to meet each night and make their plans to rob banks, someone going in for lunch because they live round the cornershould not be punished

That is not purely a Muslim thing it is something that it is fundamental . I oppose for example bike laws brought in in Australia that mean someone wearing a shirt or jacket of a prescribed motorcycle group/gang or going into a bike pub or going for a family barbecue with two brothers who might be in a bike gang can be prosecuted and given a substantial prison sentence - that is plainly wrong. If they deal ice then or
 
Radio 4's World at One had a very interesting guy on, who was a Professor of French Studies (or something like that) but he made some very good points about the situation in France, pointing out that France has been hit many times in the past mainly by people of Algerian descent, and it's a peculiarly French problem, it seems the fall out from the Algerian war of independence and the basic French and Algerian dislike for each other from what was a very nasty war by all accounts, he was saying that many of the tactics used were used in that war the Algerian community is the most marginalised in France
 
I am not saying that immigration should be open borders and not subject to appropriate controls - just saying it saddens me how delighted the hard right seem to be that this attack increases fear and is a wonderful tool to boost their cause.[/QUOTE]

I agree with that,some are sharpening their claws at all immigrants now
 
cleavers said:
It wouldn't be a few short weeks planning anyway, these will have been their equivalent of "SF", very well trained operatives, they won't have mock up version of Paris to train on, so they will have been scouting the areas for a while, to ensure good access, check on security, check on the type of 'target' available on a Friday evening (it wasn't a random day they chose to do it), then probably a few trial runs to check all eventualities.
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it will be well planned but like our own special forces the planning can be done quickly if all are well trained, know the general mission types they will do
 
karen7 said:
I am not saying that immigration should be open borders and not subject to appropriate controls - just saying it saddens me how delighted the hard right seem to be that this attack increases fear and is a wonderful tool to boost their cause.
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I agree with that,some are sharpening their claws at all immigrants now[/QUOTE]

Or just normal folk going about their daily lives would expect some basic checks
 
karen7 said:
I am not saying that immigration should be open borders and not subject to appropriate controls - just saying it saddens me how delighted the hard right seem to be that this attack increases fear and is a wonderful tool to boost their cause.
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I agree with that,some are sharpening their claws at all immigrants now[/QUOTE]
We have to try to weed out terrorists in every way we can but the genuine refugees are escaping out enemy and to leave the innocent to ISIS would be deeply morally wrong. Bearing in mind how many ways terrorists who are off the radar can enter and how much is home grown it is quite clear this is just an excuse for the anti immigration brigade rather than a genuine desire to defeat a brutal enemy. I guess it depends if you think Mosely types are patriots or not
 
RichardDunneOwnGoal said:
Homegrown fighters who were very well trained and armed, clearly.

My opportunity to speculate now, but from my perspective they must have travelled from France to join IS in Iraq/Syria, and been trained and engaged in combat - before returning undetected, possibly posing as refugees, with a native Syrian, to plan an attack in Paris weeks/months later.

That is the most plausible explanation of events based upon the information we hold currently.
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You just love blaming it on the refugees don't you? You try to dismiss everyone else's opinion whilst forwarding yours, subtly, as fact.
The French allowed hundreds back into their own country having gone to Syria to 'fight'. There's the issue, not some random refugee who could quite easily have drowned as actually made it to France.
But that doesn't seem to fit into your, or other racists, narrative that we must do everything to exterminate refugees
 
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grim up north said:
I agree with that,some are sharpening their claws at all immigrants now
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Or just normal folk going about their daily lives would expect some basic checks[/QUOTE]
The right wingers can't wait to stick the boot in
We are taking those from camps only according to dave so we should be ok if that is true
 
grim up north said:
I agree with that,some are sharpening their claws at all immigrants now
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Or just normal folk going about their daily lives would expect some basic checks[/QUOTE]
Nothing wrong with that at all but I don't think those going about their fm daily lives are the ones rejoicing and spreading poison
 
karen7 said:
Or just normal folk going about their daily lives would expect some basic checks
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The right wingers can't wait to stick the boot in
We are taking those from camps only according to dave so we should be ok if that is true[/QUOTE]

I think he got that spot on but the wider eupoean nations
 
Ducado said:
Radio 4's World at One had a very interesting guy on, who was a Professor of French Studies (or something like that) but he made some very good points about the situation in France, pointing out that France has been hit many times in the past mainly by people of Algerian descent, and it's a peculiarly French problem, it seems the fall out from the Algerian war of independence and the basic French and Algerian dislike for each other from what was a very nasty war by all accounts, he was saying that many of the tactics used were used in that war the Algerian community is the most marginalised in France
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I can believe that. My sister has lived in Paris for a year, she can't believe how segregated the communities are other there. Apparently the two communities show complete disdain to one another.
 
EalingBlue2 said:
it will be well planned but like our own special forces the planning can be done quickly if all are well trained, know the general mission types they will do
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Yes but they don't have the sort of access to intelligence like our SF do, we have satellites that can view what individuals are doing, probably who they are, they can only use scouts, google earth will give them good maps, but it doesn't locate people, security, and even the traffic isn't wholly reliable. They have planned well.

I'm not sure what point we're really arguing here anyway, as my original point was that it seems unlikely imho, that they sneaked an operative in via the refugee route on Oct 3rd, someone who was well up on the planning and execution of this, so far any links to that are at best tenuous.
 
Ducado said:
Radio 4's World at One had a very interesting guy on, who was a Professor of French Studies (or something like that) but he made some very good points about the situation in France, pointing out that France has been hit many times in the past mainly by people of Algerian descent, and it's a peculiarly French problem, it seems the fall out from the Algerian war of independence and the basic French and Algerian dislike for each other from what was a very nasty war by all accounts, he was saying that many of the tactics used were used in that war the Algerian community is the most marginalised in France
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it was a horrible war and there is a lot of history there and the French problem is far more North African in general than middle eastern. There is also an economic issue with youth unemployment in very large towns and areas that is worse than the UK
 
George Hannah said:
Of the many eloquent things Hitchens said in his defence of atheism you have managed to find two quotes one of which invites a logical impossibility followed by a corollary which is plainly wrong and the other a simple truism. You don't seem to recognise that your own value system has been shaped by your culture or that your familiar complaint that religious morality is merely prudential (however much the various religions may have wished that to be the case) is not borne out by the way folk have acted down the ages.
Referring to "imaginary friends in the sky " or people of faith only doing good because they are in fear of the torments of a medieval hell is highly disrespectful. It also, when continuously repeated on the internet, dangerously fuels the resentment of the secular perspective together with the aggressive materialist culture with which it is often associated, by the overwhelming majority of folk whose belief in God is woven into their way of life.
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Why should "religious belief" be respected? Serious question.

I ask because I am really, really, tired of religious people asserting that their beliefs should be respected. It is perfectly possible to respect an individual, while thinking their Sunday habits are rather peculiar. "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Associating "aggressive materialist culture" with atheism and only with atheism is a common defensive ploy of the religious and has no basis in fact.
 
Balti said:
Good. Just a start hopefully. UK needs to bomb them as well. And then boots on the ground. Kill as many of the cowardly cockroaches as we can. It's a war that won't end but lets get stuck in properly.

Looks like anti-immigration public opinion is gathering pace:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/107516
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I have asked before and I will ask again - where to put boots on the ground? ISIS are fighting in Syria and Irag and reputed to have involvement in Libya and Morrocco at least.

Then what boots? The government is slashing the Army - they want there to be fewer than 50k full timers by 2019. The recruitment of Territorial replacements is way behind schedule. Their support in the Logistics Corps is being asset stripped - a lot of what we brought back from Afghan is already sold or earmarked for sale. The RAF transports have fared little better.

Forget the political will mate we couldn't play ISIS in a game of ruby right now with the personnel available - you think of those on deployment and those in for a refit already. France had 1500 troops on the streets of Paris within an hour of this kicking off. If it happened in London I doubt Cameron could muster 300 - all he will do is wring his hands talk about things and hope to fuck all this stays in mainland Europe.
 
cleavers said:
Yes but they don't have the sort of access to intelligence like our SF do, we have satellites that can view what individuals are doing, probably who they are, they can only use scouts, google earth will give them good maps, but it doesn't locate people, security, and even the traffic isn't wholly reliable. They have planned well.

I'm not sure what point we're really arguing here anyway, as my original point was that it seems unlikely imho, that they sneaked an operative in via the refugee route on Oct 3rd, someone who was well up on the planning and execution of this, so far any links to that are at best tenuous.
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I don't think we are I guess I am just expressing fear that as these people become better trained with that they are able to act and plan more quickly and they are this harder to infiltrate also there seems to be a real element of brothers which again makes infiltration and turning people harder
 
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