KEEP SAFE: 'Make rape legal' group plan events in Shambles Square & worldwide

geoff clipp said:
You don't really know what a feminist is do you? The vast majority of feminists are normal level headed people. Some feminists are men, some feminists are women. Being a feminist doesn't automatically make you "angry". Feminism involves believing that women should be granted basic political, social, and economic equality with men. Being a feminist doesn't involve hating men or thinking that all men are guilty of anything. It seems like you're holding on to some outdated, cartoonish portrayal of what feminists are. It's the equivalent of someone believing that all men are like Roosh V which is obviously absolute nonsense.

False rape claims are vile and something that needs to be discussed/dealt with. But let's not lose sight of the fact that it's far less common than rape itself. I never understand why some guys suddenly have such a strong opinion on the issue of false rape claims when they've never felt the need to pipe up about actual rape before. Both are disgusting. It's not a men vs women thing.
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Very good post mate.
 
EalingBlue2 said:
I won't deny action needs to be taken on people making fake accusations but the legal situation and all academic studies would suggest this is incredibly rate whilst barely 1% of rapes get a conviction. I have to say the balance is still hugely in favour of a rapist getting away with it than someone getting wrongly convicted by a huge factor.
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When you say that "barely 1% of rapes get a conviction", I think you mean "alleged rapes" which probably tells its own story as regards your other statement that academic studies suggest that false rape allegations are "incredibly rare".
 
Wreckless Alec said:
When you say that "barely 1% of rapes get a conviction", I think you mean "alleged rapes" which probably tells its own story as regards your other statement that academic studies suggest that false rape allegations are "incredibly rare".
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It depends what you mean by "alleged." The 1% figure presumably includes unreported rapes, which are typically measured in surveys of some sort. There is clearly no motive to lie in that situation. When the National Crime Survey comes out, nobody feels the need to qualify burglaries to "alleged burglaries" because no-one was convicted, but somehow when a woman claims she's been the victim of rape, there's cause for doubt. It's not a controversial statement to say that the majority of men who rape women get away with it, because it's naturally a crime that's difficult to prove or even get enough evidence to go to trial (most that actually go to trial do result in conviction). It may also be a crime that has a higher rate of false reporting than others, but I've seen no evidence to support that claim.
 
I'm With Stupid said:
It depends what you mean by "alleged." The 1% figure presumably includes unreported rapes, which are typically measured in surveys of some sort. There is clearly no motive to lie in that situation. When the National Crime Survey comes out, nobody feels the need to qualify burglaries to "alleged burglaries" because no-one was convicted, but somehow when a woman claims she's been the victim of rape, there's cause for doubt. It's not a controversial statement to say that the majority of men who rape women get away with it, because it's naturally a crime that's difficult to prove or even get enough evidence to go to trial (most that actually go to trial do result in conviction). It may also be a crime that has a higher rate of false reporting than others, but I've seen no evidence to support that claim.
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What I mean by "alleged" is exactly that. As you say, more often than not there is no evidence besides the word of one person against another. As a patron of a charity (Mankind) that deals with male victims of domestic violence I can assure you that there are many reasons to make up claims of domestic violence and worse, including getting a man removed from the marital home or banned from seeing his kids without any evidence. I dare say there are men reading this now who have suffered in this way. I would be very wary of "research" unless you take into account who commissioned or sponsored it, who conducted it and the research methodology. The notorious "stat" of 1 in 4 women has suffered domestic violence is one of those that came out of skewed research methodology.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Yeah, I can accept that, and although the reasons behind this 2% and 4% are probably extremely obscure, my own take on
it leans towards the very real fundamentals of child bearing/care, and the need to have large working age gaps in a career.
What irks me is the constant stressing about equality, when inequality doesn't exactly leap out at you in this country. My daughter has
rocketed through her own career, through hard graft, whilst raising a child, and she's done it simply because she's better than the numerous males
around her.
Great analogy with climate change by the way.
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Great post, that's the problem I have with most of the feminists I've heard from, I'm all for equality and fairness but when you actually think about some of the garbage they come out with it makes a mockery of what true feminists(when they had a point) went through and how much they have achieved for them. When they start using Hollywood actors as an example of unequal pay who get paid in the millions it's hard to take them seriously(I mean just think about it for a second someone telling you with a straight face the plight of these poor millionaire actresses), also they never stop to think, it couldn't be that movies with say De Caprio tend to do huge numbers in sales and they are high up the tree in that regard so have earned the right to command a higher fee?

I suppose I do see feminists as unstable man hating, not really about equality whiners. Male feminists I don't trust(call me cynical but it wouldn't surprise me if they were just whipped/owned by their woman or use it as their only chance of getting laid) it screams of self loathing like they don't even want to identify as a man at times(yes I have unfortunately stumbled across male feminist blog posts that read like love letters "oh i will try and be a better man every day to make it up to you and maybe someday I will be worthy" *puke*). Maybe I should have left feminists out of it and stayed on topic considering but it's something they are involved in, pushing for changes in the law which wont actually make things better for anyone.

Back on topic, like others have said he probably is just a scammer trying to cause controversy, maybe even laid the trap with his wording so he can than turn it around and make his point with more attention. Ignore the plank, the thing is now that I think of the attention this has received, he might find the wrong type of guys joining this "group" or whatever it is thanks to the kind of headlines it's been getting.
 
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Wreckless Alec said:
When you say that "barely 1% of rapes get a conviction", I think you mean "alleged rapes" which probably tells its own story as regards your other statement that academic studies suggest that false rape allegations are "incredibly rare".
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Not at all the studies are based on much more anonymous data, it just shows how hard the hurdle is on evidence to get a conviction. If it was he said she said then you would expect a huge % to get tested in court and a fairly even conviction rate but that's not the case. At the moment you need a tonne of evidence for the crime beyond even the physical and evidence of the victim.

Yet for some utterly bizarre reason now there is a growing group of male victims who feel rape persecuted because they believe their risk of being falsely accused is worse than the actual risk of rape. I don't get it at all.

It's the same with other crimes like child abuse where there has been false accusations but there is a shit load more people out there whose lives have been ruined by abusers than there are poor innocent people whose life has been runs by a false accusation.

When there is a genuinely proven false accusation then sever action should be taken
 
Metalartin said:
Great post, that's the problem I have with most of the feminists I've heard from, I'm all for equality and fairness but when you actually think about some of the garbage they come out with it makes a mockery of what true feminists(when they had a point) went through and how much they have achieved for them. When they start using Hollywood actors as an example of unequal pay who get paid in the millions it's hard to take them seriously(I mean just think about it for a second someone telling you with a straight face the plight of these poor millionaire actresses), also they never stop to think, it couldn't be that movies with say De Caprio tend to do huge numbers in sales and they are high up the tree in that regard so have earned the right to command a higher fee?

I suppose I do see feminists as unstable man hating, not really about equality whiners. Male feminists I don't trust(call me cynical but it wouldn't surprise me if they were just whipped/owned by their woman or use it as their only chance of getting laid) it screams of self loathing like they don't even want to identify as a man at times(yes I have unfortunately stumbled across male feminist blog posts that read like love letters "oh i will try and be a better man every day to make it up to you and maybe someday I will be worthy" *puke*). Maybe I should have left feminists out of it and stayed on topic considering but it's something they are involved in, pushing for changes in the law which wont actually make things better for anyone.

Back on topic, like others have said he probably is just a scammer trying to cause controversy, maybe even laid the trap with his wording so he can than turn it around and make his point with more attention. Ignore the plank, the thing is now that I think of the attention this has received, he might find the wrong type of guys joining this "group" or whatever it is thanks to the kind of headlines it's been getting.
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I have always found men who are insecure about women like Roosh do it because deep down they are a little afraid of them, to protect themselves they hide it behind macho or demeaning behaviour. They are the equivalent of homophobes caught up in their own self loathing a nd taking it out on someone else they see in themselves or are afraid of.

Roosh has got what he wanted and the more millitant feminists who are the equivalent of feminist ISIS are playing in to his hands. But to pretend they represent feminism is as daft as pretending all Islam is represented by ISIS but this is exactly what some people do.
 
EalingBlue2 said:
Not at all the studies are based on much more anonymous data, it just shows how hard the hurdle is on evidence to get a conviction. If it was he said she said then you would expect a huge % to get tested in court and a fairly even conviction rate but that's not the case. At the moment you need a tonne of evidence for the crime beyond even the physical and evidence of the victim.

Yet for some utterly bizarre reason now there is a growing group of male victims who feel rape persecuted because they believe their risk of being falsely accused is worse than the actual risk of rape. I don't get it at all.

It's the same with other crimes like child abuse where there has been false accusations but there is a shit load more people out there whose lives have been ruined by abusers than there are poor innocent people whose life has been runs by a false accusation.

When there is a genuinely proven false accusation then sever action should be taken
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The thing is proving you are innocent of something is much much harder than proving someone is guilty of something, this is what a lot of people fail to see, the best most can hope for is for a lack of evidence to say that they did a crime which isn't actually full acquittal as I understand it. You'd want full acquittal and for whoever was involved to be punished but that rarely ever happens even when they are acquitted.

I see you are probably looking at it as there is a lesser of two evils between the two and you'd be right there but surely we can do better than that in this day and age as a society? It's not male victims as you put it, well at least where I'm concerned, it's looking at it objectively in the interests of fairness and justice for all.

I also think it's absurd to think there are loads of rapist and fiddlers roaming about, most people aren't like that contrary to some beliefs its rare but the media loves to create hysteria because they profit from it at the end of the day.
 
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Metalartin said:
The thing is proving you are innocent of something is much much harder than proving someone is guilty of something, this is what a lot of people fail to see, the best most can hope for is for a lack of evidence to say that they did a crime which isn't actually full acquittal as I understand it. You'd want full acquittal and for whoever was involved to be punished but that rarely ever happens even when they are acquitted.

I see you are probably looking at it as there is a lesser of two evils between the two and you'd be right there but surely we can do better than that in this day and age as a society surely? It's not male victims as you put it, well at least where I'm concerned, it's looking at it objectively in the interests of fairness and justice for all.

I also think it's absurd to think there are loads of rapist and fiddlers roaming about, most people aren't like that contrary to some beliefs its rare but the media loves to create hysteria because they profit from it at the end of the day.
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Couldn't disagree more the whole legal system is set up to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt to a group of your peers and by unanimous or majority verdict and things don't even go to court if they aren't likely to make that hurdle. Day in day out we all see crimes got away with because of this.

The idea you have extremely paranoid and I am not sure if driven by personal experience which you could legitimately have or by conspiracy theory.

If you think about what you are saying there must only be about 19 rapes a year in Britain and a few hundred innocent men banged up which is fantasy.

I accept rape has a low conviction and accept why that is as ultimately in our system he said she said or he said he said crimes will rightly very very rarely get to court let alone get a conviction which is precisely because the burden of proof has to be on the prosecution side to prove their case to a jury beyond reasonable doubt. I don't think that can or will change which is why there will always be hundreds if rapists probably thousands of rapists walking free for every innocent person locked up for this crime.

Most will never need acquiting as they wont most likely even make it to the CPS let alone court.

If you genuinely believe that women are all mental and falsely reporting rapes all the time then I genuinely feel sorry for you as I can't imagine having such a view of half of the population
 
EalingBlue2 said:
Couldn't disagree more the whole legal system is set up to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt to a group of your peers and by unanimous or majority verdict and things don't even go to court if they aren't likely to make that hurdle. Day in day out we all see crimes got away with because of this.

The idea you have extremely paranoid and I am not sure if driven by personal experience which you could legitimately have or by conspiracy theory.

If you think about what you are saying there must only be about 19 rapes a year in Britain and a few hundred innocent men banged up which is fantasy.

I accept rape has a low conviction and accept why that is as ultimately in our system he said she said or he said he said crimes will rightly very very rarely get to court let alone get a conviction which is precisely because the burden of proof has to be on the prosecution side to prove their case to a jury beyond reasonable doubt. I don't think that can or will change which is why there will always be hundreds if rapists probably thousands of rapists walking free for every innocent person locked up for this crime.

Most will never need acquiting as they wont most likely even make it to the CPS let alone court.

If you genuinely believe that women are all mental and falsely reporting rapes all the time then I genuinely feel sorry for you as I can't imagine having such a view of half of the population
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We have no way of knowing how many take place, there are nutjob women out there, there are women who shy away from accepting responsibility(which is probably more common than them being nutjobs but still wrong)... it's not personal experience but from what I have read and heard, I don't need to experience something to look objectively at it. You may not be single or get laid much if you have such a hard time putting yourself in those shoes(infact I'm too old for night clubs now anyway so there's little chance but I can certainly imagine the scenario and I have experienced enough to know not all woman are sugar and spice that's for sure) and how much it would suck. You say you don't need full acquittal? That's a bit short sighted you'd certainly want that, you'd really be happy with it just being thrown out of court and left a grey area open to question?

I have no idea of the amount of claims made a year I'll be honest about that(how many can there be really?) but neither of us know how many of the ones which were thrown out were actual rapes, your solution is what there's not enough evidence but the numbers can't be right so lets just lock some of them up to even up the numbers a bit?
 
Metalartin said:
We have no way of knowing how many take place, there are nutjob women out there, there are women who shy away from accepting responsibility(which is probably more common than them being nutjobs but still wrong)... it's not personal experience but from what I have read and heard, I don't need to experience something to look objectively at it. You may not be single or get laid much if you have such a hard time putting yourself in those shoes and how much it would suck. You say you don't need full acquittal? That's a bit short sighted you'd certainly want that, you'd really be happy with it just being thrown out of court and left a grey area open to question?

I have no idea of the amount of claims made a year I'll be honest about that(how many can there be really?) but neither of us know how many of the ones which were thrown out were actual rapes, you're solution is what there's not enough evidence but the numbers can't be right so lets just lock some of them up to even up the numbers a bit?
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So whilst admitting you have no idea you choose to go against everything research and the experts suggest and settle on men being the victims of rape.

Course it would suck but I would rather do 50 years in jail falsely accused than see a man who raped my daughter walk free because the law makes it so impossible to prosecute and watch what it did to her life. I know victims of sexual assault and abuse and they are never the same again and that applies even more so if it never makes it to court it gets taken seriously

So honestly in my values I put the moderate possibility my girls could be a victim of an assault way ahead of the million to one shot I could be falsely accused in my priorities and even if it was 50:50 not 1000:1 I'd feel the same .
 
EalingBlue2 said:
So whilst admitting you have no idea you choose to go against everything research and the experts suggest and settle on men being the victims of rape.

Course it would suck but I would rather do 50 years in jail falsely accused than see a man who raped my daughter walk free because the law makes it so impossible to prosecute and watch what it did to her life. I know victims of sexual assault and abuse and they are never the same again and that applies even more so if it never makes it to court it gets taken seriously

So honestly in my values I put the moderate possibility my girls could be a victim of an assault way ahead of the million to one shot I could be falsely accused in my priorities and even if it was 50:50 not 1000:1 I'd feel the same .
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It's you saying "you're just saying rich white males are the victims of the rapes" when nobody has said that, I do understand as a father and husband the thought of something like that happening will hit you deep, I wonder if you had a son right now coming home drunk bringing birds back you would have another dreaded thought that could also have the same emotional impact?

There really is no fair answer to it that I can see, if we find a better way to get justice for all then I'm all for it, plus I was more talking about the grey area when drink and drugs are involved and they simply cant remember the next day, they do a lot of drink and recreational drugs these days. I don't get how you can argue with that, anything else would be case by case and not really what I was driving at.

Anyway I respect your opinions and can see why you think that way, there's no need to pigeonhole each other like tends to happen sometimes.
 
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Metalartin said:
It's you saying "you're just saying rich white males are the victims of the rapes" when nobody has said that, I do understand as a father and husband the thought of something like that happening will hit you deep, I wonder if you had a son right now coming home drunk bringing birds back you would have another dreaded thought that could also have the same emotional impact?

There really is no fair answer to it that I can see, if we find a better way to get justice for all then I'm all for it, plus I was more talking about the grey area when drink and drugs are involved and they simply cant remember the next day, they do a lot of drink and recreational drugs these days. I don't get how you can argue with that, anything else would be case by case and not really what I was driving at.

Anyway I respect your opinions and can see why you think that way, there's no need to pigeonhole each other like tends to happen sometimes.
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No I'm not saying only they are victims I was talking about the male rape victim the man who claims that the problem of poor innocent men being falsely accused of rape is the real problem and not rape itself
I compared it to the phenomenon in the US of wealthy white males who feel deeply angry by how unfairly they are treated and the movement from People like Rush limbaugh and Glenn Beck
 
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