We're not planning on turning into North Korea if we vote out. Most outers are broadly pro-European outward looking folk who see no reason to continue to belong to an undemocratic, overly regulated, corrupt, customs union. Some of you see disaster and danger, I see freedom and opportunity. I'll be voting to leave for positive reasons because I believe it to be in the best interests of my country, and in the long term, in the best interests of the rest of Europe as they realise how well nations can prosper outside the EU.
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It's a pity Brexit will never happen. It could have prevented a spiral downwards of our freedoms and economic well-being.
Unfortunately for a Democracy to thrive, requires an informed and politically awake electorate.The controlled MSM ensures the sleeple are kept in a sombulent condition and distracted by irrelevant issues. I fear that only collapse ,chaos and reset will be the end result. The informed and aware are but a small minority despite the great advances in modern communications.
Unfortunately for a Democracy to thrive, requires an informed and politically awake electorate.The controlled MSM ensures the sleeple are kept in a sombulent condition and distracted by irrelevant issues. I fear that only collapse ,chaos and reset will be the end result. The informed and aware are but a small minority despite the great advances in modern communications.
Len Rum
Well-Known Member
Funnily enough it's the little Englanders who constantly moan about the EU who will bottle it on the day and vote to stay in.If you're calling people who support the struggle for independence with a legislature elected by the people "little Englanders" then I'm calling those who wish to remain in a growing totalitarian state "the enemies of democracy".
I have the facts on my side too; the calling of people "little Englanders" is a purely emotional thing
They will then continue to moan the following day.
M
M
mat
Guest
You could argue the electorate has been dumbed down by modern communication?It's a pity Brexit will never happen. It could have prevented a spiral downwards of our freedoms and economic well-being.
Unfortunately for a Democracy to thrive, requires an informed and politically awake electorate.The controlled MSM ensures the sleeple are kept in a sombulent condition and distracted by irrelevant issues. I fear that only collapse ,chaos and reset will be the end result. The informed and aware are but a small minority despite the great advances in modern communications.
They'll vote the way a celeb or uncle wupert tells them.
Len Rum
Well-Known Member
We need a big personality who can take those sentiments and convince the electorate that Britain can thrive outside the EU and in the process rediscover it's identity as a nation state.We're not planning on turning into North Korea if we vote out. Most outers are broadly pro-European outward looking folk who see no reason to continue to belong to an undemocratic, overly regulated, corrupt, customs union. Some of you see disaster and danger, I see freedom and opportunity. I'll be voting to leave for positive reasons because I believe it to be in the best interests of my country, and in the long term, in the best interests of the rest of Europe as they realise how well nations can prosper outside the EU.
BoJo and Theresa May have bottled it and Gove is wavering. At the moment we have a rag,tag and bobtail of characters leading the Out campaign but without a credible big hitter the campaign could be doomed.
BlueHammer85
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 13 Oct 2010
- Messages
- 40,685
We're not planning on turning into North Korea if we vote out. Most outers are broadly pro-European outward looking folk who see no reason to continue to belong to an undemocratic, overly regulated, corrupt, customs union. Some of you see disaster and danger, I see freedom and opportunity. I'll be voting to leave for positive reasons because I believe it to be in the best interests of my country, and in the long term, in the best interests of the rest of Europe as they realise how well nations can prosper outside the EU.
I don't see disaster or danger either way. Our personal lives will barely change whatever the outcome - I would just rather be in a EU that works and all nations help each other - I feel we should continue working for that rather than turning our backs like a nation of 'we're alright jacks'
I don't see disaster or danger either way. Our personal lives will barely change whatever the outcome - I would just rather be in a EU that works and all nations help each other - I feel we should continue working for that rather than turning our backs like a nation of 'we're alright jacks'
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
Our current role in the EU is to give countries with lesser economies money (or fish), be that with our nation's surplus in contributions, benefits that workers here are able to send home, having a significantly higher minimum wage, etc.
What we should be doing is saying "our economy is outperforming yours - can we share what we're doing so that you can choose whether or not to replicate it" (or teaching other countries to fish). Unfortunately, a lot of economies are in the pan because of the Euro deliberately being kept low.
Sadly, the short-sighted nature of governments mean that the rest of Europe would prefer short term cash, and I resent having to give it to them.
blueonblue
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 31 Jan 2009
- Messages
- 2,522
Maybe not at first, but by the time your kids grow up they will be fully under the EU jackboot, the freedoms and rights fought for by generations will be gone, along with their ability to change things with votes or the law.
Perhaps taking off the "Magic" glasses that let you see things like an EU that works are nothing but a figment of your imagination, that its some nations helping themselves rather than others, face the fact we have no real sway in how this corruption riddled gathering operates.
Vote out an free this country before its to late.
Perhaps taking off the "Magic" glasses that let you see things like an EU that works are nothing but a figment of your imagination, that its some nations helping themselves rather than others, face the fact we have no real sway in how this corruption riddled gathering operates.
Vote out an free this country before its to late.
urmston
Well-Known Member
Would we have voted to stay in the EU in 1975 if we'd known it would become a low growth, high unemployment region, full of racial and social tensions and with little harmony between member nations?
And that the rules would change so that millions of workers from new member states would be able to come here and suppress wages for the working class, a policy Labour's Jack Straw has called a 'spectacular mistake'?
No.
So vote Leave.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24924219
And that the rules would change so that millions of workers from new member states would be able to come here and suppress wages for the working class, a policy Labour's Jack Straw has called a 'spectacular mistake'?
No.
So vote Leave.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24924219
Would we have voted to stay in the EU in 1975 if we'd known it would become a low growth, high unemployment region, full of racial and social tensions and with little harmony between member nations?
And that the rules would change so that millions of workers from new member states would be able to come here and suppress wages for the working class, a policy Labour's Jack Straw has called a 'spectacular mistake'?
No.
So vote Leave.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24924219
I wouldn't have voted to join if I'd known how it would turn out. Not for the reasons you've given, much more because 28 countries committed to ever increasing unity just will not work.
But the world has changed since '75. Pulling out will be immensely more expensive than never joining.
Len Rum
Well-Known Member
Maybe not if we get out before the whole unworkable thing ( by your own admission) collapses.I wouldn't have voted to join if I'd known how it would turn out. Not for the reasons you've given, much more because 28 countries committed to ever increasing unity just will not work.
But the world has changed since '75. Pulling out will be immensely more expensive than never joining.
purplenose
Well-Known Member
The reality is that if we pull out we really dont know what will happen and that scares people, but simple common sense a little understanding of history should tell you what is happening now and what is almost certain to happen if we stay in, and that really should scare people alot more.
For me the EU has completely undermined democracy in the UK and every minute people in this country lose their democratic right more and more.
UK democracy has come a long way evolving over a millenium, we introduced heabeus corpus as part of the Magna Carta which allowed no man to be inprisoned without proper trial which is a highlighted one of the first steps towards democracy. The UK population has struggled over the years for universal suffrage, women especially and have pushed for various reform acts which eventually allowed universal vote for everybody over 18.
It seems Cameron is happy to easily hand over power which the British people have fought for back to the EU. Nobody in this country voted for droopy faced Merkal to dictate on foreign policy, nobody voted for Junker to swan around in his private jet and nobody voted for Donald Tusk.
UK democracy has come a long way evolving over a millenium, we introduced heabeus corpus as part of the Magna Carta which allowed no man to be inprisoned without proper trial which is a highlighted one of the first steps towards democracy. The UK population has struggled over the years for universal suffrage, women especially and have pushed for various reform acts which eventually allowed universal vote for everybody over 18.
It seems Cameron is happy to easily hand over power which the British people have fought for back to the EU. Nobody in this country voted for droopy faced Merkal to dictate on foreign policy, nobody voted for Junker to swan around in his private jet and nobody voted for Donald Tusk.
Maybe not if we get out before the whole unworkable thing ( by your own admission) collapses.
I'm not convinced that leaving will actually protect us when the whole unworkable thing collapses.
Edit: Hopefully the whole unworkable thing will collapse, but it will not for decades and until it does I'm not sure we'll be better out.
purplenose
Well-Known Member
I'm not convinced that leaving will actually protect us when the whole unworkable thing collapses.
Edit: Hopefully the whole unworkable thing will collapse, but it will not for decades and until it does I'm not sure we'll be better out.
The collapse has started on many levels politically financially economically and socially.....if your in a plane and the wings fall off it usually better to jump out and use your parachute sharpish instead of waiting until your to low for it too open?
Len Rum
Well-Known Member
Dave's let it be known he's " battling for Britain" to get the best deal.
Deal?
What deal?
What's on the table is worth about two bob, will probably be watered down to 1s/6d by the other member states and then end up being unpicked by the European Parliament.
Carry on Dave.
Deal?
What deal?
What's on the table is worth about two bob, will probably be watered down to 1s/6d by the other member states and then end up being unpicked by the European Parliament.
Carry on Dave.
purplenose
Well-Known Member
I am really struggling to see any part of this deal that will make a difference to the everyday person, and therefore the way they will vote. The things that people on the street are saying concerns them have been just about totally ignored. Yet within the next hours we will no doubt be treated to honest Dave bumbling on about how well we (he) has done out of it.
This arrogant indifference to the electorate could yet see us vote out.
This arrogant indifference to the electorate could yet see us vote out.
hilts
Well-Known Member
Even if he gets everything he is trying for it will still be a shit deal, the benefit package and trying to halt sending child benefit abroad is quite laughable really, it will go like Scotland people will vote to stay in through fear, too many spineless fuckers about
Dave Ewing's Back 'eader
Well-Known Member
The deal is the emperor's new clothes. There's a great Matt cartoon in the DT this morning with two wrestlers suggesting the whole negotiation is stage managed.
The EU is gonna be the greatest drain on those European economies who have a half decent economy to start with and God knows where this blind alley of political 'union' is going! The minute you get a Eurocrat talking about political union you can see where it's going, and it will almost certainly NOT be in the interests of the UK.
The EU is gonna be the greatest drain on those European economies who have a half decent economy to start with and God knows where this blind alley of political 'union' is going! The minute you get a Eurocrat talking about political union you can see where it's going, and it will almost certainly NOT be in the interests of the UK.
Len Rum
Well-Known Member
Make or break decision time for Boris.
If he falls in behind Dave ( as some are suggesting on the back of some promise on "sovereignty" Whatever TF that means) , then I think his PM ambitions are gone. Everyone knows his sentiments are anti EU and if he plays safe and meekly tows the pro EU line then he will be seen as a bottler.
On the other hand if he follows his anti EU convictions he could become the 'big hitter' that the OUT lobby needs. The public would then have a chance to judge him as a serious player leading that campaign. Rise to the occasion and it would tremendously boost his PM credentials when Dave eventually exits stage left.
If we voted to leave he would be nailed on as the next PM, but even in the event of the In campaign being successful I still think he wouldn't have harmed his chances in what will still be a Eurosceptic Tory Party and country ( particularly if the vote is close).
Cometh the hour, cometh the Bo Jo?
If he falls in behind Dave ( as some are suggesting on the back of some promise on "sovereignty" Whatever TF that means) , then I think his PM ambitions are gone. Everyone knows his sentiments are anti EU and if he plays safe and meekly tows the pro EU line then he will be seen as a bottler.
On the other hand if he follows his anti EU convictions he could become the 'big hitter' that the OUT lobby needs. The public would then have a chance to judge him as a serious player leading that campaign. Rise to the occasion and it would tremendously boost his PM credentials when Dave eventually exits stage left.
If we voted to leave he would be nailed on as the next PM, but even in the event of the In campaign being successful I still think he wouldn't have harmed his chances in what will still be a Eurosceptic Tory Party and country ( particularly if the vote is close).
Cometh the hour, cometh the Bo Jo?