John Stones

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Dax777 said:
I'm sorry but Otamendi is light years better than Mangala. He is multiple classes above him. No way Ota is being sold. The taught is laughable really. If a new CB comes in its either Denayer is not coming back or Mangala is leaving.

Neither Kompany not Ota ate going anywhere. These 2 are going to be constant.

If I were to compare our defenders to Bayern's, Komps would be Badstuber, Ota is Boateng, and Mangala is Dante.
Click to expand...

That was just my opinion/hunch with a touch of devils advocate Dax.
I appreciate you watch considerably more football than I do, and probably approach it in a more scholarly fashion ! Nevertheless a few points in support of my contention ...
I'd fully agree that right now Ota is a more consistent reliable player than Eli but he's still prone to rash and impulsive challenges/decisions that have cost us points, particularly when Vinny hasn't been there in peak form, with his cloak of tranquility covering up partners frailties. He had a horror show only a month ago against West Ham and even in VK's first game back he didn't cover himself in glory against Lamela in the build up to Eriksen's winner.
He's three years older than Mangala and played alongside him plenty at Porto, where presumably our scouts thought that Eliaquim had much greater potential considering they moved in the same window and we spent about four times the money Valencia laid out on Nico.
Indeed Otamendi after really arriving on the World stage at South Africa 2010, has had some ups and downs in form during his career and was left out of the Argentina squad for Brasil 2014 (MD and Campagnaro being preferred to him suggests he had a really dodgy spell on loan at Minerio or Sabella had some non footballing reasoning maybe ?) while Mangala went with France, so in any case its fair to say that only 18 months ago their careers were heading along quite different trajectories !
Obviously since then Mangala has stalled a bit since arriving at City (with some mitigating factors like no pre-season in 2014 and various injuries preventing him ever being able to establish a consistent run in the side alongside an in form partner). In contrast Ota has bounced back emphatically since that disappointment, with a fantastic season for Valencia followed by an excellent Copa America last summer.
The point being that Otamendi while always considered as a player of real potential, has seemingly only really put the whole lot together and produced consistently top form over the last season and a half after turning 26 ....
So is it really that outlandish to suggest that under a unique genius of a coach, who has turned older and similarly inconsistent players careers inside out (Eric Abidal anyone ?), that a player with the impressive qualities that Mangala undoubtedly possesses can't do the same ? I don't know but I think it's definitely possible.
I certainly think that looking over both their entire careers or even just this season at City, it's serious hyperbole to be saying things like 'light years better' and 'multiple classes above' in any case, perhaps you're a little caught up in the warm fuzzy afterglow of our two recent triumphs ?!
Nico has played better overall no doubt, but both have had their share of 'moments' and both have shone at times too ... unsurprisingly most of those shiny performances have been with Vinny next door to them, a luxury that Eli hasn't had since .... you know the beginning of the season which they started with five clean sheets !
Re your Bayern comparison, Nico couldn't play those Boateng laser guided long passes in his dreams mate ! Wikipedia tells me that Dante was a prominent member of that Heynckes side that broke all sorts of defensive records in the 12/13 season, so there are worse comparisons out there ... even if Germany breaking him and Luiz in Brasil a year later is fresher in the memory !
I'm sure I'm probably oversimplifying things but I see great talent along with a some smaller flaws in both players, so I'm just curious where exactly you see this huge chasm in their respective talents ?

To draw things back to the actual topic in hand, my only issue with signing Stones would be that while he's a fine prospect (and I suspect a lot of his sketchy form this season is down to his head being turned back in August), I fear he'd be blocking Jason Denayer's progress in the future, or can JS be equally adept as a left sided CB ?
I believe we have have four excellent central defenders already (assuming JD replaces MD, though I can understand the theory that Guardiola may fancy a more comfortable ball player with top class distributional skills.
I'd personally favour Laporte at the likely prices and being a natural lefty but I wouldn't be bowled over if Pep decides he's happy enough with what he's inheriting already. After all we can't overhaul the whole squad in one window and I don't think CB is a pressing area of concern, certainly not in comparison to full backs and our central midfield.

Whatever happens, it's going to be so exciting watching it all play out this year anyways, what a time to be a Blue !
 
Dax777 said:
Mangala is Dante.
Click to expand...

Dante is no longer at Bayern, they got rid of him to Wolfsburg. I was actually about to say that I hope Pep doesn't sign us a defender of Dante's quality because he was dogshit but just checked and Bayern signed him a year before Pep arrived.

Dax777 said:
Haven't clocked either, but Laporte looks much faster going by my eye test. I've seen Laporte chase down fast players, I generally tend to see Stones avoiding getting into races with fast guys.
Click to expand...

Agree with this, Laporte seems quicker and can hold his own against nimble strikers.
 
FantasyIreland said:
Given next seasons main four options,why do people believe we are struggling in this area of the team?
Click to expand...

Good question.

As I've alluded to in my lengthy ramble above, it is an area that could be left well alone until the Summer of 2017 imo. Of course it's always easier to say this while Vince is fit and looking in Rolls Royce form but that would apply to any team lucky enough to have one of the top 5 players in the world at their position.
 
FantasyIreland said:
Given next seasons main four options,why do people believe we are struggling in this area of the team?
Click to expand...

I don't believe the quality of the players is the issue, other than Demi - he's past it. But the system in which we play doesn't make them look the brightest and Mangler and Nico definitely have their fair share of bonehead decisions during matches.
 
Tugay One Cup said:
Dante is no longer at Bayern, they got rid of him to Wolfsburg. I was actually about to say that I hope Pep doesn't sign us a defender of Dante's quality because he was dogshit but just checked and Bayern signed him a year before Pep arrived.



Agree with this, Laporte seems quicker and can hold his own against nimble strikers.
Click to expand...
I know. The choice was intended. :) I think Mangala will stay for a year and then be moved on.
 
obliquerays said:
That was just my opinion/hunch with a touch of devils advocate Dax.
I appreciate you watch considerably more football than I do, and probably approach it in a more scholarly fashion ! Nevertheless a few points in support of my contention ...
I'd fully agree that right now Ota is a more consistent reliable player than Eli but he's still prone to rash and impulsive challenges/decisions that have cost us points, particularly when Vinny hasn't been there in peak form, with his cloak of tranquility covering up partners frailties. He had a horror show only a month ago against West Ham and even in VK's first game back he didn't cover himself in glory against Lamela in the build up to Eriksen's winner.
He's three years older than Mangala and played alongside him plenty at Porto, where presumably our scouts thought that Eliaquim had much greater potential considering they moved in the same window and we spent about four times the money Valencia laid out on Nico.
Indeed Otamendi after really arriving on the World stage at South Africa 2010, has had some ups and downs in form during his career and was left out of the Argentina squad for Brasil 2014 (MD and Campagnaro being preferred to him suggests he had a really dodgy spell on loan at Minerio or Sabella had some non footballing reasoning maybe ?) while Mangala went with France, so in any case its fair to say that only 18 months ago their careers were heading along quite different trajectories !
Obviously since then Mangala has stalled a bit since arriving at City (with some mitigating factors like no pre-season in 2014 and various injuries preventing him ever being able to establish a consistent run in the side alongside an in form partner). In contrast Ota has bounced back emphatically since that disappointment, with a fantastic season for Valencia followed by an excellent Copa America last summer.
The point being that Otamendi while always considered as a player of real potential, has seemingly only really put the whole lot together and produced consistently top form over the last season and a half after turning 26 ....
So is it really that outlandish to suggest that under a unique genius of a coach, who has turned older and similarly inconsistent players careers inside out (Eric Abidal anyone ?), that a player with the impressive qualities that Mangala undoubtedly possesses can't do the same ? I don't know but I think it's definitely possible.
I certainly think that looking over both their entire careers or even just this season at City, it's serious hyperbole to be saying things like 'light years better' and 'multiple classes above' in any case, perhaps you're a little caught up in the warm fuzzy afterglow of our two recent triumphs ?!
Nico has played better overall no doubt, but both have had their share of 'moments' and both have shone at times too ... unsurprisingly most of those shiny performances have been with Vinny next door to them, a luxury that Eli hasn't had since .... you know the beginning of the season which they started with five clean sheets !
Re your Bayern comparison, Nico couldn't play those Boateng laser guided long passes in his dreams mate ! Wikipedia tells me that Dante was a prominent member of that Heynckes side that broke all sorts of defensive records in the 12/13 season, so there are worse comparisons out there ... even if Germany breaking him and Luiz in Brasil a year later is fresher in the memory !
I'm sure I'm probably oversimplifying things but I see great talent along with a some smaller flaws in both players, so I'm just curious where exactly you see this huge chasm in their respective talents ?

To draw things back to the actual topic in hand, my only issue with signing Stones would be that while he's a fine prospect (and I suspect a lot of his sketchy form this season is down to his head being turned back in August), I fear he'd be blocking Jason Denayer's progress in the future, or can JS be equally adept as a left sided CB ?
I believe we have have four excellent central defenders already (assuming JD replaces MD, though I can understand the theory that Guardiola may fancy a more comfortable ball player with top class distributional skills.
I'd personally favour Laporte at the likely prices and being a natural lefty but I wouldn't be bowled over if Pep decides he's happy enough with what he's inheriting already. After all we can't overhaul the whole squad in one window and I don't think CB is a pressing area of concern, certainly not in comparison to full backs and our central midfield.

Whatever happens, it's going to be so exciting watching it all play out this year anyways, what a time to be a Blue !
Click to expand...
Dude, love the way you write (and not coz you puffed my head up in the beginning of the writeup.) But I like the in-depth considerations before concluding. I truly enjoyed reading your response.

And in fairness my statement suggesting Ota is light years better is hyperbolic. Icwas just trying to drive home the point that he was unlikely to leave.

So in a sense we agree generally on a few things. Ota is currently better, they both make mistakes, and Mangala is younger. I also agree that hypothetically speaking Mangala could get better and become very good.

I disagree on some things:
1. I don't think moat of Ota's good games have come with Kompany. He has had some 2. But more of his better games have come without Kompany. This is not to suggest he is better without Kompany, he isn't. But he has in fact played more of his good games without him. Mangala on the other hand has barely plays well without Kompany.

2. As for who was better at Porto, I don't think Mangala was, he was just younger, and younger players get the benefit of the doubt. For example Jageilka has been better than Stones this season, yet Stones is the one every top English team would consider buying. This is not proof he is better, rather it's projection that he might be later down the line considering his age. Similar considerations were a factor when they both played at Porto. This also is not to suggest some didn't conclude Mangala was better outright, many did. I wasn't one of them. Always thought Ota was the better footballer even though Mangs showed an intensity that some believed suggested future WC.

3. There is a penchant for comparing Boateng and Abidal to Mangala, I really don't see the comparison. For 1, both were ball playing footballers. Sure they got better, but the tools they now exhibited with consistency later, was always there. Just inconsistent. Mangala on the other hand is not a ball player. He is more of an athlete. He is the very epitome of the kind of player Barca wouldn't recruit. He is tough, hardworking, energetic, strong, fast, athletic, powerful l dominant ariely dominant. All qualities that many great CBs have embodied. But he lacks a footballing touch, and has an average to below average footballing IQ. His IQ could be improved greatly by a good coach. His touch on the other hand is probably already what it's always going to be. Sahkoesque or Dantesque. Thus, my comparison to Dante. This is not to suggest Dante is a terrible player, he isn't. Neither is Mangala. But for a team I suspect would cherish possession under Pep, I struggle to see how he makes the grade.

As for the topic at hand, seeing as I've gone way out in left field, yes I'd rather have the cheaper Larpote too.
 
Dax777 said:
Dude, love the way you write (and not coz you puffed my head up in the beginning of the writeup.) But I like the in-depth considerations before concluding. I truly enjoyed reading your response.

And in fairness my statement suggesting Ota is light years better is hyperbolic. Icwas just trying to drive home the point that he was unlikely to leave.

So in a sense we agree generally on a few things. Ota is currently better, they both make mistakes, and Mangala is younger. I also agree that hypothetically speaking Mangala could get better and become very good.

I disagree on some things:
1. I don't think moat of Ota's good games have come with Kompany. He has had some 2. But more of his better games have come without Kompany. This is not to suggest he is better without Kompany, he isn't. But he has in fact played more of his good games without him. Mangala on the other hand has barely plays well without Kompany.

2. As for who was better at Porto, I don't think Mangala was, he was just younger, and younger players get the benefit of the doubt. For example Jageilka has been better than Stones this season, yet Stones is the one every top English team would consider buying. This is not proof he is better, rather it's projection that he might be later down the line considering his age. Similar considerations were a factor when they both played at Porto. This also is not to suggest some didn't conclude Mangala was better outright, many did. I wasn't one of them. Always thought Ota was the better footballer even though Mangs showed an intensity that some believed suggested future WC.

3. There is a penchant for comparing Boateng and Abidal to Mangala, I really don't see the comparison. For 1, both were ball playing footballers. Sure they got better, but the tools they now exhibited with consistency later, was always there. Just inconsistent. Mangala on the other hand is not a ball player. He is more of an athlete. He is the very epitome of the kind of player Barca wouldn't recruit. He is tough, hardworking, energetic, strong, fast, athletic, powerful l dominant ariely dominant. All qualities that many great CBs have embodied. But he lacks a footballing touch, and has an average to below average footballing IQ. His IQ could be improved greatly by a good coach. His touch on the other hand is probably already what it's always going to be. Sahkoesque or Dantesque. Thus, my comparison to Dante. This is not to suggest Dante is a terrible player, he isn't. Neither is Mangala. But for a team I suspect would cherish possession under Pep, I struggle to see how he makes the grade.

As for the topic at hand, seeing as I've gone way out in left field, yes I'd rather have the cheaper Larpote too.
Click to expand...

Having just read the latest post from yourself and oblique rays, I realisehow little I actually know about some of our players, and European football in general. Both are great post with really good points, thanks for the read.
 
obliquerays said:
That was just my opinion/hunch with a touch of devils advocate Dax.
I appreciate you watch considerably more football than I do, and probably approach it in a more scholarly fashion ! Nevertheless a few points in support of my contention ...
I'd fully agree that right now Ota is a more consistent reliable player than Eli but he's still prone to rash and impulsive challenges/decisions that have cost us points, particularly when Vinny hasn't been there in peak form, with his cloak of tranquility covering up partners frailties. He had a horror show only a month ago against West Ham and even in VK's first game back he didn't cover himself in glory against Lamela in the build up to Eriksen's winner.
He's three years older than Mangala and played alongside him plenty at Porto, where presumably our scouts thought that Eliaquim had much greater potential considering they moved in the same window and we spent about four times the money Valencia laid out on Nico.
Indeed Otamendi after really arriving on the World stage at South Africa 2010, has had some ups and downs in form during his career and was left out of the Argentina squad for Brasil 2014 (MD and Campagnaro being preferred to him suggests he had a really dodgy spell on loan at Minerio or Sabella had some non footballing reasoning maybe ?) while Mangala went with France, so in any case its fair to say that only 18 months ago their careers were heading along quite different trajectories !
Obviously since then Mangala has stalled a bit since arriving at City (with some mitigating factors like no pre-season in 2014 and various injuries preventing him ever being able to establish a consistent run in the side alongside an in form partner). In contrast Ota has bounced back emphatically since that disappointment, with a fantastic season for Valencia followed by an excellent Copa America last summer.
The point being that Otamendi while always considered as a player of real potential, has seemingly only really put the whole lot together and produced consistently top form over the last season and a half after turning 26 ....
So is it really that outlandish to suggest that under a unique genius of a coach, who has turned older and similarly inconsistent players careers inside out (Eric Abidal anyone ?), that a player with the impressive qualities that Mangala undoubtedly possesses can't do the same ? I don't know but I think it's definitely possible.
I certainly think that looking over both their entire careers or even just this season at City, it's serious hyperbole to be saying things like 'light years better' and 'multiple classes above' in any case, perhaps you're a little caught up in the warm fuzzy afterglow of our two recent triumphs ?!
Nico has played better overall no doubt, but both have had their share of 'moments' and both have shone at times too ... unsurprisingly most of those shiny performances have been with Vinny next door to them, a luxury that Eli hasn't had since .... you know the beginning of the season which they started with five clean sheets !
Re your Bayern comparison, Nico couldn't play those Boateng laser guided long passes in his dreams mate ! Wikipedia tells me that Dante was a prominent member of that Heynckes side that broke all sorts of defensive records in the 12/13 season, so there are worse comparisons out there ... even if Germany breaking him and Luiz in Brasil a year later is fresher in the memory !
I'm sure I'm probably oversimplifying things but I see great talent along with a some smaller flaws in both players, so I'm just curious where exactly you see this huge chasm in their respective talents ?

To draw things back to the actual topic in hand, my only issue with signing Stones would be that while he's a fine prospect (and I suspect a lot of his sketchy form this season is down to his head being turned back in August), I fear he'd be blocking Jason Denayer's progress in the future, or can JS be equally adept as a left sided CB ?
I believe we have have four excellent central defenders already (assuming JD replaces MD, though I can understand the theory that Guardiola may fancy a more comfortable ball player with top class distributional skills.
I'd personally favour Laporte at the likely prices and being a natural lefty but I wouldn't be bowled over if Pep decides he's happy enough with what he's inheriting already. After all we can't overhaul the whole squad in one window and I don't think CB is a pressing area of concern, certainly not in comparison to full backs and our central midfield.

Whatever happens, it's going to be so exciting watching it all play out this year anyways, what a time to be a Blue !
Click to expand...

Jesus, I thought I waffled :)
Cracking post!
 
Dax777 said:
Dude, love the way you write (and not coz you puffed my head up in the beginning of the writeup.) But I like the in-depth considerations before concluding. I truly enjoyed reading your response.

And in fairness my statement suggesting Ota is light years better is hyperbolic. Icwas just trying to drive home the point that he was unlikely to leave.

So in a sense we agree generally on a few things. Ota is currently better, they both make mistakes, and Mangala is younger. I also agree that hypothetically speaking Mangala could get better and become very good.

I disagree on some things:
1. I don't think moat of Ota's good games have come with Kompany. He has had some 2. But more of his better games have come without Kompany. This is not to suggest he is better without Kompany, he isn't. But he has in fact played more of his good games without him. Mangala on the other hand has barely plays well without Kompany.

2. As for who was better at Porto, I don't think Mangala was, he was just younger, and younger players get the benefit of the doubt. For example Jageilka has been better than Stones this season, yet Stones is the one every top English team would consider buying. This is not proof he is better, rather it's projection that he might be later down the line considering his age. Similar considerations were a factor when they both played at Porto. This also is not to suggest some didn't conclude Mangala was better outright, many did. I wasn't one of them. Always thought Ota was the better footballer even though Mangs showed an intensity that some believed suggested future WC.

3. There is a penchant for comparing Boateng and Abidal to Mangala, I really don't see the comparison. For 1, both were ball playing footballers. Sure they got better, but the tools they now exhibited with consistency later, was always there. Just inconsistent. Mangala on the other hand is not a ball player. He is more of an athlete. He is the very epitome of the kind of player Barca wouldn't recruit. He is tough, hardworking, energetic, strong, fast, athletic, powerful l dominant ariely dominant. All qualities that many great CBs have embodied. But he lacks a footballing touch, and has an average to below average footballing IQ. His IQ could be improved greatly by a good coach. His touch on the other hand is probably already what it's always going to be. Sahkoesque or Dantesque. Thus, my comparison to Dante. This is not to suggest Dante is a terrible player, he isn't. Neither is Mangala. But for a team I suspect would cherish possession under Pep, I struggle to see how he makes the grade.

As for the topic at hand, seeing as I've gone way out in left field, yes I'd rather have the cheaper Larpote too.
Click to expand...
Great post Dax
 
I honestly don't believe Stones is going to be a world class centre half. He'll develop into a good premier league CB akin to the Jagielkas and Shawcrosses of this world but I don't think he has anything about him, as a defender, that suggests he'll push on past that level into the elite.

I've yet to see a top performance from him and certainly nothing to suggest we should pay £50mil for him. On the whole this season he's been fairly poor, especially in his decision making, positioning and basically the basics. Second only to Russell Martin for defensive errors.

Just think he's another product of the English hype train. Much better options out there including one of which is already ours. I hope Pep comes in and has absolute control over transfers because those in charge currently have got it wrong too often in last few years.
 
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01cravend said:
I honestly don't believe Stones is going to be a world class centre half. He'll develop into a good premier league CB akin to the Jagielkas and Shawcrosses of this world but I don't think he has anything about him, as a defender, that suggests he'll push on past that level into the elite.

I've yet to see a top performance from him and certainly nothing to suggest we should pay £50mil for him. On the whole this season he's been fairly poor, especially in his decision making, positioning and basically the basics. Second only to Russell Martin for defensive errors.

Just think he's another product of the English hype train. Much better options out there including one of which whom is already ours. I hope Pep comes in and has absolute control over transfers because those in charge currently have got it wrong too often in last few years.
Click to expand...

I agree with you mate. Our pathetic defence has conceded 8 less goals than the one with the next Bobby Moore in it!!
 
Dax777 said:
I'm sorry but Otamendi is light years better than Mangala. He is multiple classes above him. No way Ota is being sold. The taught is laughable really. If a new CB comes in its either Denayer is not coming back or Mangala is leaving.

Neither Kompany not Ota ate going anywhere. These 2 are going to be constant.

If I were to compare our defenders to Bayern's, Komps would be Badstuber, Ota is Boateng, and Mangala is Dante.
Click to expand...

Dante's at Wolfsburg.
 
Two top replies above from emerdale boy and zab man...

I don't think defenders mature and show just how good they are until 24 or 25, they tend to have a longer shelf life than all other players to so can go on to 32 or even 34. With this in mind stones has more playing time yet to show he can work hard and read the game before he gets a 40 million price tag.

Everton have talkshite and sky to thank if they get 40 million this year because they love him.. It's different when you come to city, you are then criticised from day one and dare to make a mistake in your first 5 games and your season has been poor and it's shown in slow motion for the next 3 months.

Remember lescott coming from Everton as their prise player. He looked lost for 2 seasons until kompany shaped him up, was dreadful on the ball.
 
We will see what Pep makes of him but I feel if we get him he will get the same treatment as all the young English player we buy from now on will... "overrated... more money than sense City wasting money again"

We'd be swapping him for Mangala if we do get him IMO and to be honest the main bonus he's supposed to have is he is composed on the ball and attack minded... he's already made mistakes that have cost Everton this season and people have got on his back a bit about it, the pressure will double if not treble when he signs with us. So he's not ready yet IMO and not worth losing money by selling Mangala who is a solid unit, fast, powerful and was improving when working alongside Kompany at the start of the season.

I like Otamendi personally and think he is or will be our best defender after Vinny should he stay... more importantly though I'd rather have the player who really wants to stay and play for this club more(it could be Manga or Ota don't see themselves adapting to BPL or life in England) because in the long run that works out best for everyone. Maybe Pep will have a word and consider his options when he comes in.
 
Otamendi would excellent as a defensive midfielder, better than Fernando. If we buy Laporte we will have two very quick center half's and another two capable of playing in central midfield. Sign Stones as well and that's 3 rapid centre half's who are young and can play at full back.
 
I don't think our centre backs are a priority at the moment - denayer in for Demi should be enough of a change to be getting on with, and the transfers used for the more urgent positions (left back!)

I think the defence will be improved enough just by Pep coming in to be honest
 
VOOMER said:
Otamendi would excellent as a defensive midfielder, better than Fernando. If we buy Laporte we will have two very quick center half's and another two capable of playing in central midfield. Sign Stones as well and that's 3 rapid centre half's who are young and can play at full back.
Click to expand...
I agree about Ota, he would thrive in that position.
 
01cravend said:
I honestly don't believe Stones is going to be a world class centre half. He'll develop into a good premier league CB akin to the Jagielkas and Shawcrosses of this world but I don't think he has anything about him, as a defender, that suggests he'll push on past that level into the elite.

I've yet to see a top performance from him and certainly nothing to suggest we should pay £50mil for him. On the whole this season he's been fairly poor, especially in his decision making, positioning and basically the basics. Second only to Russell Martin for defensive errors.

Just think he's another product of the English hype train. Much better options out there including one of which whom is already ours. I hope Pep comes in and has absolute control over transfers because those in charge currently have got it wrong too often in last few years.
Click to expand...
+1. very valid point
 
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