EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%
  • Total voters
    1,050
Status
Not open for further replies.
Mëtal Bikër said:
"Between the wars"? Which wars, the World Wars? Hmmm now what significant economic and financial event could possibly have occured to affect Britain's economic status during that time...

We needed Europe to trade with to get ourselves back on our feet after 1945. De Gaulle stated our economy was 'incompatible' with Europe's and we were barred for many years before they relented. But we voted to join an economic union (EEC), NOT a political one (EU). That is the main crux of many 'outers' arguments and so far nobody has been able to convince me that, politically speaking, the EU has done anything beneficial for Britain. (If I hear the 'well what about human rights act?' argument once more I may scream...)
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Firstly give a quick scream -
Secondly if you can't even acknowledge the part the EU has played in the longest period of peace in Western Europe, in the opening up of our culture and the change in society, not only in terms of our relationships with the countries, how we live , what we eat, where we travel, how we see things etc then there is no hope. Like it or not from the moment we wake up to going to sleep being such a strong part of Europe has changed everything in business, politics and how we live (for good and bad). The problem with many of the out voters is an intense ability to say that everything good would have happened anyway and nothing bad would have happened. That peace only reigned because of NATO that we would be consuming and living and holiday in as we do regardless.

The single biggest impact though is the EU kept us relevant, being the English speaking voice , a little less regulated, a bit closer in other systems and thus an easy gateway to the EU kept us important, brought business here and made us a focus especially for the US.

That is the main crux of your outer argument (which I understand ) but not most of them, I have seen far more arguments about mass immigration , about terrorism, about dictatorship etc on this and other threads
 
SWP's back said:
If you were running things you'd know better than the electorate and do your own things whatever everyone else wanted.

About sums the left up.
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As you have lectured us many times this is not right v left, on the first point you are right in the second point you'd be wrong, because however deeply damaging democracy is coming to the west with its short termism and protection of corruption and extreme wealth the alternative is worse
 
EalingBlue2 said:
Firstly give a quick scream -
Secondly if you can't even acknowledge the part the EU has played in the longest period of peace in Western Europe, in the opening up of our culture and the change in society, not only in terms of our relationships with the countries, how we live , what we eat, where we travel, how we see things etc then there is no hope. Like it or not from the moment we wake up to going to sleep being such a strong part of Europe has changed everything in business, politics and how we live (for good and bad). The problem with many of the out voters is an intense ability to say that everything good would have happened anyway and nothing bad would have happened. That peace only reigned because of NATO that we would be consuming and living and holiday in as we do regardless.

The single biggest impact though is the EU kept us relevant, being the English speaking voice , a little less regulated, a bit closer in other systems and thus an easy gateway to the EU kept us important, brought business here and made us a focus especially for the US.

That is the main crux of your outer argument (which I understand ) but not most of them, I have seen far more arguments about mass immigration , about terrorism, about dictatorship etc on this and other threads
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So if I cannot see the benefit in something you have a favourable opinion of, all is lost?

What kind of argument are you even making here? You see the EU as something progressive, many others see it as restrictive. If anything I could question how you could support such a totalitarian regime that ignores the sentiment of the European people and their collective nations to rule over us on the sole basis they were "elected" so that affords them inalienable rights to do so, over democratic process that has the ability to replace regimes the people find is failing to meet the aims of the collective will of the people, but I won't because I'm not that dramatic. You saying something is good does not make it so. You're making the claim the EU has been good for the nations and peoples of Europe, you have to prove it. The Dutch are poised to hold their own vote on EU membership (regardless of the result of the British vote), as are the Danes. "Brexit" isn't a solely British complaint about the EU, many other nations and their people are opposed to it, 'anti-EU' sentiment has never been at its highest and that's before I even mention the Portuguese, the Irish and the Greeks. The EU has benefitted the idea of the EU, nothing more. "Like it or not", but peace in Europe has been maintained thanks to the collective efforts of the UN and NATO; the EU was barely even at the negotiating table.

Europe lived in harmony for decades before the EU idea was realised, who's to say it won't be again. Keep the trade, remove the bureaucratic, undemocratic law that certain (unelected) EU delegates have chosen to exploit to lord over us. The problem with many IN voters is that they fail to recognise the potential, the strengths and overall ability of this country and its people to make Britain great. If your argument for Britain to remain in the EU is because the alternative is that the "Tories would rule us, and who wants that?", then I feel it is my place to say that 'there is no hope' amongst the left and the 'Inners' to create a compelling, convincing arguement for Britain to remain in this undemocatic political 'dictatorship'. (okay, so maybe one outburst of 'dramatic emphasis', but you get the gist)
 
Helmet Cole said:
Thanks for checking (I hadn't). I'd imagine our economic decline over the last few generations has been because we don't go around the world killing brown people and taking their things anymore - or at least as much. Also we are no longer having an industrial revolution -our things cost too much and we can't enslave our own poor as well as we used to. Our decline as a naval superpower and the end of the cold war has left us uneasy of our new place in the world, and this as much as economics probably should be part of the in/out debate. Economically we are in a state of managed decline and politically I think we have a global role to play by being neither part of the EU federal state, and also not part of team USA world police. I think we should stand as an island, nurture good relations with the east, west, Europe and act as a neutral 'good guy' stopping the world becoming polarised Orwell style. Hopefully trading with all will follow and keep us at least in the top 5.
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I think Britains decline could probably be traced back to the late 19th century as when it started. It accelerated a bit even prior to WW1 but the start of huge reductions in shipping, coal . What caused it? Many things. Changes in politics, asserting in the empire, end of traditional changes, loss of competitive advantages, no longer having slavery and exploiting the empire to the same degree, the fast growth of the US post the civil war rebuild, new industries, others catching up, politics, the end of child labour, the start of some forms of organised labour and workers rights and many many more reasons.

Your dreams of how we could act are worthy but we have well and truly made our bed and it will be a century before a world could believe Britain like that. We would do immense damage with our allies far before we gained any politics benefit. We are Americas voice in Europe globally that's our role. With Brexit we will still be seen as that but will neither have America at our ear or have the ear of Europe.

The managed decline will continue in our life time 5th will become 10th, probably 15th and the population will continue to age , social medicine will go and either the country will burst through immigration it go bust like will happen in Japan. That is unless we stop wasting time and money blaming Europe for our problems, stop wasting all our political energy claiming that an amount we contribute to the EU net that's a half of a percent of national debt and around a fifth of annual interest or an 8th of the amount the debt increases annually is going to changes things.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
So if I cannot see the benefit in something you have a favourable opinion of, all is lost?

What kind of argument are you even making here? You see the EU as something progressive, many others see it as restrictive. If anything I could question how you could support such a totalitarian regime that ignores the sentiment of the European people and their collective nations to rule over us on the sole basis they were "elected" so that affords them inalienable rights to do so, but I won't because I'm not that dramatic. You saying something is good does not make it so. You're making the claim the EU has been good for the nations and peoples of Europe, you have to prove it. The Dutch are poised to hold their own vote on EU membership (regardless of the result of the British vote), as are the Danes. "Brexit" isn't a solely British complaint about the EU, many other nations and their people are opposed to it, 'anti-EU' sentiment has never been at its highest and that's before I even mention the Portuguese, the Irish and the Greeks. The EU has benefitted the idea of the EU, nothing more. "Like it or not", but peace in Europe has been maintained thanks to the collective efforts of the UN and NATO; the EU was barely even at the negotiating table.

Europe lived in harmony for decades before the EU idea was realised, who's to say it won't be again. Keep the trade, remove the bureaucratic, undemocratic law that certain (unelected) EU delegates have chosen to exploit to lord over us. The problem with many IN voters is that they fail to recognise the potential, the strengths and overall ability of this country and its people to make Britain great. If your argument for Britain to remain in the EU is because the alternative is that the "Tories would rule us, and who wants that?", then I feel it is my place to say that 'there is no hope' amongst the left and the 'Inners' to create a compelling, convincing arguement for Britain to remain in this undemocatic political 'dictatorship'. (okay, so maybe one outburst of 'dramatic emphasis', but you get the gist)
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Metalbiker I have said from the start that this whole vote is a distraction from the real issues the UK faces , far more material, far more significant and that until the UK decides what it's future is its a total waste of time and money.

I think most of the damage has been done sadly by the choice of the political elite to use the Europe debate to blame our problems on others and to choose to do nothing rather than argue about an exit that will make zero difference to the long term economic decline.

It is changing deckchairs on the titanic and the fact I am broadly in favour of the deckchairs staying as they are doesn't change the fact at the moment I think there are bigger things to spend time, energy, investment and capital on , namely keeping an eye on the iceberg, getting the steering whee manned and freeing the lifeboats.

By the time the dust has cleared on this we will be left whether in or out with a country more divided than it has been in a long time, a wasted decade and a political discourse that will blame everything on that outcome. I fear that the damage is already done though and the cowardly politics of Cameron and short term expediency of most of our politicians will have sold the UK down the river. Don't get me wrong most of the politicians in Europe are little better. But it is all the wrong question .

The truth is I see a world where technology, mass immigration , language, is moving us in a direction where capitalism will move us to far bigger unions than the EU. But I also see a world where people start needing to take responsibility for themselves and stop always looking to blame. The whole EU debate seems to stem from the fact a large chunk of the UK would rather argue about nothing and look for others to blame than focus on what really needs doing
 
EalingBlue2 said:
Metalbiker I have said from the start that this whole vote is a distraction from the real issues the UK faces , far more material, far more significant and that until the UK decides what it's future is its a total waste of time and money.

I think most of the damage has been done sadly by the choice of the political elite to use the Europe debate to blame our problems on others and to choose to do nothing rather than argue about an exit that will make zero difference to the long term economic decline.

It is changing deckchairs on the titanic and the fact I am broadly in favour of the deckchairs staying as they are doesn't change the fact at the moment I think there are bigger things to spend time, energy, investment and capital on , namely keeping an eye on the iceberg, getting the steering whee manned and freeing the lifeboats.

By the time the dust has cleared on this we will be left whether in or out with a country more divided than it has been in a long time, a wasted decade and a political discourse that will blame everything on that outcome. I fear that the damage is already done though and the cowardly politics of Cameron and short term expediency of most of our politicians will have sold the UK down the river. Don't get me wrong most of the politicians in Europe are little better. But it is all the wrong question .

The truth is I see a world where technology, mass immigration , language, is moving us in a direction where capitalism will move us to far bigger unions than the EU. But I also see a world where people start needing to take responsibility for themselves and stop always looking to blame. The whole EU debate seems to stem from the fact a large chunk of the UK would rather argue about nothing and look for others to blame than focus on what really needs doing
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Enough...with the analogies. Titanic, deckchairs, icebergs, dust, just speak plainly, will you.

You're talking to a former 'inner', one who did research, one who looked at the EU and where it was goin, where it wanted to be and more importantly how it wanted to gte there and fond the whole situation wholly unacceptible. Europe is a good idea, the EU is not, but those in power at the EU (i.e. the ones who benefit most directly from it) refuse to relinquish their status. Cameron wants to stay IN the EU, so i'm not sure why you're bringing his "politics" into it. All those things you mentioned, technology, mass immigration, capitalism, they are all things the EU wants, yet these are things you don't seem to advocate. The EU wants more union integration, more power diverted to their little group, protecting banks, protecting dodgy deals, cheap labour, less democracy. We have a chance to bring the whole stinking rotten "house of cards", tumbling, as i've mentioned if we leave (currently the EU's 2nd largest economy) others will follow, but from it we can all renegotiate a new Europe, a better Europe, one without the need for bureacracy. The financial crisis of 2008 almost crippled the EU and they are doing their best to ensure that will never happen again by transferring or even removing powers of each member state over to themselves. This is not democracy, this is not the EU we were promised, we have highlighted this to them and they refuse to reform. There is only one logical response.
 
The perfect fumble said:
Really? When was that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe
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Research European history from 1957 (when the ECSC was realised) to 1990 (which was the point I was making, not general European history and the feudal kings of old as a whole) and you'll see that during the pre-EU's formation from ECSC and EEC the number of conflicts between the European nations was....nil, aside from Eastern European nations trying to rid themselves of Communism or the little spat on our own shores regarding the troubles. But good shout bringing up the entirity of Britain's association with Europe, highlighting the number of times they've all tried at one point or another to eradicate our people from the face of the earth down to pure greed. Nothing says solidarity like "hey remember when we tried to eliminate you....quince? But hey, we good now, right? Just keep sending us money and allow our courts to overule your own. Did I mention they're not elected?"
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Enough...with the analogies. Titanic, deckchairs, icebergs, dust, just speak plainly, will you.

You're talking to a former 'inner', one who did research, one who looked at the EU and where it was goin, where it wanted to be and more importantly how it wanted to gte there and fond the whole situation wholly unacceptible. Europe is a good idea, the EU is not, but those in power at the EU (i.e. the ones who benefit most directly from it) refuse to relinquish their status. Cameron wants to stay IN the EU, so i'm not sure why you're bringing his "politics" into it. All those things you mentioned, technology, mass immigration, capitalism, they are all things the EU wants, yet these are things you don't seem to advocate. The EU wants more union integration, more power diverted to their little group, protecting banks, protecting dodgy deals, cheap labour, less democracy. We have a chance to bring the whole stinking rotten "house of cards", tumbling, as i've mentioned if we leave (currently the EU's 2nd largest economy) others will follow, but from it we can all renegotiate a new Europe, a better Europe, one without the need for bureacracy. The financial crisis of 2008 almost crippled the EU and they are doing their best to ensure that will never happen again by transferring or even removing powers of each member state over to themselves. This is not democracy, this is not the EU we were promised, we have highlighted this to them and they refuse to reform. There is only one logical response.
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Speaking plainly we have far far more important issues to deal with and worry about than in or out of the EU we should focus on those first. A debate like this whatever the outcome will be a national disaster that will harm Britain irrevocably and that harm will manifest itself in a slight acceleration of the long term decline of the country. But the damage is probably already done
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
All those things you mentioned, technology, mass immigration, capitalism, they are all things the EU wants, yet these are things you don't seem to advocate. The EU wants more union integration, more power diverted to their little group, protecting banks, protecting dodgy deals, cheap labour, less democracy. We have a chance to bring the whole stinking rotten "house of cards", tumbling,
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^^ Do you have any faith in your politicians tackling the above issues?
 
EalingBlue2 said:
Speaking plainly we have far far more important issues to deal with and worry about than in or out of the EU we should focus on those first. A debate like this whatever the outcome will be a national disaster that will harm Britain irrevocably and that harm will manifest itself in a slight acceleration of the long term decline of the country. But the damage is probably already done
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Given that that debate is already happening, this point that you continue to labour is redundant. What I'd like to know is given the view you have (it's all hopeless - we're doomed!), why are you so firmly in the In camp?
 
aguero93:20 said:
^^ Do you have any faith in your politicians tackling the above issues?
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Do you have any faith that the British public will choose their politicians accordingly?
Because at the moment we have NO choice over the European Commissioners who do.

We sever the EU gravy train and our politicians will soon understand where their loyalties must lie; with the British electorate. If our politicians are not up to the task, or willing to implement the changes we want, we can vote to remove them. If our MEP's in Brussles are found wanting, we can do nothing about it, by that I mean we can oppose, but unless all members agree, the vote will go against us.

You may despise the Tories, many people do, but at the next election we can vote them out, if that is the collective will of the people. If we don't then it is a path we have chosen for ourselves and those in opposition have only themselves to blame for not being able to convince the majority to either A) vote for them or B) vote in the first place (given the number of low turnouts)
Look at the Scottish Referendum: a topic which really invigorated politics in Scotland. I'm not going to get into a debate on whether the choice was correct or wasn't, that's not my place, but that choice was still made by the Scottish people themselves and they have to live with the consequences as a result of one arguement not being as strong as the other.Imagine if the Scottish people voted YES only to have their vote overruled by the EU. Would you still say that "there were more important issues at hand and the EU knows them better than the Scottish?" Because I doubt you'd find a single Scot to agree with you in that circumstance.

The EU's arguement is "You're a member, you do what we tell you. Oh you can have a vote, but unless it's unanimous..." This referendum is the ONLY opportunity where European influence has NO say. It's a chance to ask OUR politicians to improve the politics in THIS country, where we live and work. You only have to look at the number of reforms we presented to the EU that were rejected to see we have no influence in the EU.

I have faith in democracy, I have none in the EU.
 
aguero93:20 said:
You've no choice over the house of lords either to be fair.
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It's a good job they don't make the laws then, isn't it. Unlike the unelected European Commission (whom we do not vote, they are appointed.

Here, i'll let Tony Benn explain.
 
aguero93:20 said:
I can see where this differs from the relationship between Manchester council and Westminster.
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If a political party comes forward with a method or policy to devolve powers from Westminster back to local parliaments, i'd be all for it. I am for example in favour of English Votes for English Laws, just as I approve of more devolved powers for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Westminster should NOT be the central powerhouse of the United Kingdom. But what would be the point if an EU Commission still held supremacy over any local parliament and Westminster?

If anything you've more or less advocated what the 'out' campaign is calling for.
 
CityStu said:
Given that that debate is already happening, this point that you continue to labour is redundant. What I'd like to know is given the view you have (it's all hopeless - we're doomed!), why are you so firmly in the In camp?
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I haven't seen any serious debate on this, any serious honesty with the public any attempt to make any serious policy. I am firmly for focusing on what's important and when a plan and strategy is in place the evaluate what the best way to acheive it is and make decisions on important issues like Europe when you do it for the right reasons IE pursuing a long term goal and having evaluated it.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
If a political party comes forward with a method or policy to devolve powers from Westminster back to local parliaments, i'd be all for it. I am for example in favour of English Votes for English Laws, just as I approve of more devolved powers for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Westminster should NOT be the central powerhouse of the United Kingdom. But what would be the point if an EU Commission still held supremacy over any local parliament and Westminster?

If anything you've more or less advocated what the 'out' campaign is calling for.
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You highlight brilliantly what will be the inevitable outcome of an out vote which will the break up of the Union and the break off or more likely cast off of the poorer areas of the UK. The clever thing is the scots are even playing into the rich elites plans and they will think they decide it for themselves
 
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