EU referendum

[grunge]

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...de-deals-post-brexit-unfavourable-trade-winds

I've not read it yet but trust the person who sent it and said its a good read.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

I was thinking about the extreme views on both side and it's all fear so I thought I would return the debate to the positives. I think the following reasons are why we should exit.

1. Democracy and the fact that we can hold those enacting the majority of our laws to account. Sovereignty is the most important thing for me.
2. We will keep 250m per week that we give to the Eu. This is the net fact figure taken from that eu facts website. This is a billion a month we can spend on the nhs, roads and schools.
3. We can have a coherent immigration policy focusing on the skills and people we need globally as opposed to anybody is allowed in simply on the basis of an Euro passport. To take the heat out of the immigration debate I must say I recognise the need for continued immigration into the uk it's vital for growth but out gives us the basis to be more global to get the best people.
4. There will be at least some rest bite on the support services on the front line, housing, nhs and schools and we can plan properly our population growth and plan our housing policy and schools based on the fact that we now can control the immigration numbers.
5. We will be able to agree and trade on a more decisive basis globally without the baggage of Europe. Trade agreements are I am afraid a bit of a myth. Indeed trading globally is not to the exclusion of Europe. that would continue.

Can I ask the inners to just put forward 5 benefits of staying in. I would prefer it if these were benefits not counter arguments to mine which then leads to extreme views. I would hope given we have been in the Eu for over 30 years this is really easy because all you do is pick actual examples of what currently is happening and what benefits the Euro is actually doing for us and just list them

 

[grunge]

Major leak from Brussels reveals NHS will be ‘KILLED OFF’ if Britain remains in the EU

A MAJOR leak from Brussels has revealed the NHS will be killed off if Britain remains in the European Union.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/66...main-Leave-referendum-Brussels-European-Union

We can't have this. The NHS is a British institute.

Vote out or the end times for Britain are coming !!

Rather sensationalist headline and has its own thread.

TTIP is still being written, Currently its in a dirty raw form ( which is why draft discussions are done in private ) has not even hit debate and vote yet. there is no doubt a risk but there is a long way to go.

Im not defending TTIP here, currently its an abomonation but It has a long way to go before it reaches its final form.

 

[grunge]

I was thinking about the extreme views on both side and it's all fear so I thought I would return the debate to the positives. I think the following reasons are why we should exit.

1. Democracy and the fact that we can hold those enacting the majority of our laws to account. Sovereignty is the most important thing for me.
2. We will keep 250m per week that we give to the Eu. This is the net fact figure taken from that eu facts website. This is a billion a month we can spend on the nhs, roads and schools.
3. We can have a coherent immigration policy focusing on the skills and people we need globally as opposed to anybody is allowed in simply on the basis of an Euro passport. To take the heat out of the immigration debate I must say I recognise the need for continued immigration into the uk it's vital for growth but out gives us the basis to be more global to get the best people.
4. There will be at least some rest bite on the support services on the front line, housing, nhs and schools and we can plan properly our population growth and plan our housing policy and schools based on the fact that we now can control the immigration numbers.
5. We will be able to agree and trade on a more decisive basis globally without the baggage of Europe. Trade agreements are I am afraid a bit of a myth. Indeed trading globally is not to the exclusion of Europe. that would continue.

1. Democracy and the fact that we can hold those enacting the majority of our laws to account. Sovereignty is the most important thing for me

What laws specifically are you referring too? the vast majorities of our laws are controlled by us any way, if your talking the European Human rights laws then they will still apply as they are not linked to the EU, and ironically was set up by us so we are in effect forcing our laws on Europe not the other way around.

2. We will keep 250m per week that we give to the Eu. This is the net fact figure taken from that eu facts website. This is a billion a month we can spend on the nhs, roads and schools.

If we sign up to the trading block like Norway does then we will be spending a lot of that money to do it. It will be cheaper than where we are at right now but we will have no say in anything.

3 .We can have a coherent immigration policy focusing on the skills and people we need globally as opposed to anybody is allowed in simply on the basis of an Euro passport. To take the heat out of the immigration debate I must say I recognise the need for continued immigration into the uk it's vital for growth but out gives us the basis to be more global to get the best people.

Again, if we sign up to the trading block we probably wont, free EU movement will be part of that deal like it is for Norway ( and Switzerland? )

4. There will be at least some rest bite on the support services on the front line, housing, nhs and schools and we can plan properly our population growth and plan our housing policy and schools based on the fact that we now can control the immigration numbers.

See point 3.

We will be able to agree and trade on a more decisive basis globally without the baggage of Europe. Trade agreements are I am afraid a bit of a myth. Indeed trading globally is not to the exclusion of Europe. that would continue.

Yes and no, we would be able to trade with who we like but we would have years/decades of trade negotiations ahead of us, and no where near as much clout as if we were in the largest economic block on the planet.

Without clear information about the direction the government would take us post exit none of your out points are close to guaranteed to happen.

 

[blueonblue]

The betting odds reflect the fact that there are still a large number of "undecideds" and that "undecideds" usually vote heavily for the status quo.

Usually as you say that might be the case, but there is a groundswell of resentment against the political establishment that has been steadily building, "Middle England" has woken up.
Call me f*cking dave shipping in obarmy to lecture us to do something he would not, and could not do in his own country has backfired big time, while the constant running down of this country by portraying it as some kind of helpless little Island of people who will all but sink but for the grace of the benevolent EU has exposed the lack of any real positives to remaining a member.
There are still enough people that remember the last referendum and the lies that went with it, there are yet more who can see that the claims of doom & gloom are bullshit, who can do simple math as to houses, jobs, services, or who simply do not trust a word to come out of the mouths of professional liars.

Purple nose is far from the only one to state he finds very few "Remainians", its certainly the same in my case, nor is it simply down to what circles you mix as mine are probably far wider than most.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

What laws specifically are you referring too? the vast majorities of our laws are controlled by us any way, if your talking the European Human rights laws then they will still apply as they are not linked to the EU, and ironically was set up by us so we are in effect forcing our laws on Europe not the other way around.


If we sign up to the trading block like Norway does then we will be spending a lot of that money to do it. It will be cheaper than where we are at right now but we will have no say in anything.


Again, if we sign up to the trading block we probably wont, free EU movement will be part of that deal like it is for Norway ( and Switzerland? )



See point 3.


Yes and no, we would be able to trade with who we like but we would have years/decades of trade negotiations ahead of us, and no where near as much clout as if we were in the largest economic block on the planet.

Without clear information about the direction the government would take us post exit none of your out points are close to guaranteed to happen.

I asked you to list 5 current benefits of staying in not belittle my arguments. We pay a billion a month there most be loads of benefits we get for being in so can you simply list them please.

 

[Helmet Cole]

I was thinking about the extreme views on both side and it's all fear so I thought I would return the debate to the positives. I think the following reasons are why we should exit.

1. Democracy and the fact that we can hold those enacting the majority of our laws to account. Sovereignty is the most important thing for me.
2. We will keep 250m per week that we give to the Eu. This is the net fact figure taken from that eu facts website. This is a billion a month we can spend on the nhs, roads and schools.
3. We can have a coherent immigration policy focusing on the skills and people we need globally as opposed to anybody is allowed in simply on the basis of an Euro passport. To take the heat out of the immigration debate I must say I recognise the need for continued immigration into the uk it's vital for growth but out gives us the basis to be more global to get the best people.
4. There will be at least some rest bite on the support services on the front line, housing, nhs and schools and we can plan properly our population growth and plan our housing policy and schools based on the fact that we now can control the immigration numbers.
5. We will be able to agree and trade on a more decisive basis globally without the baggage of Europe. Trade agreements are I am afraid a bit of a myth. Indeed trading globally is not to the exclusion of Europe. that would continue.

Can I ask the inners to just put forward 5 benefits of staying in. I would prefer it if these were benefits not counter arguments to mine which then leads to extreme views. I would hope given we have been in the Eu for over 30 years this is really easy because all you do is pick actual examples of what currently is happening and what benefits the Euro is actually doing for us and just list them

Its precisely this sort of scaremongering that stifles the sensible debate. I'd like to be the first to accuse you of anti Semitism, and to remind everyone that this country is too rubbish to even exist outside of the EU. Do we really want to return to the 1970's when you could not even buy a fresh croissant or boil water to make proper coffee? Brexit may seem like a nice idea, but when there are no imports, exports,jobs, or holidays anymore I'm sure the penny will drop.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Its precisely this sort of scaremongering that stifles the sensible debate. I'd like to be the first to accuse you of anti Semitism, and to remind everyone that this country is too rubbish to even exist outside of the EU. Do we really want to return to the 1970's when you could not even buy a fresh croissant or boil water to make proper coffee? Brexit may seem like a nice idea, but when there are no imports, exports,jobs, or holidays anymore I'm sure the penny will drop.

We are in the Eu now and have been for years just list the benefits we get now. You side of the argument should be dead easy as you just extrapolate what we are already get.

 

[Helmet Cole]

I asked you to list 5 current benefits of staying in not belittle my arguments. We pay a billion a month there most be loads of benefits we get for being in so can you simply list them please.

For starters the French own our water and utilities, so outside of the EU we will not even be able to make a cup of tea and we will all die.

 

[grunge]

I asked you to list 5 current benefits of staying in not belittle my arguments. We pay a billion a month there most be loads of benefits we get for being in so can you simply list them please.

Not in any particular order, a bit rushed and I could keep going but I don't have time.
1) Being part of the worlds largest economic trading block, give negotiation power.
2) free movement in Europe, Its very beneficial for countries and companies in those countries.
3) ECHR ( assuming they want to exit this too ), We need more human rights not less!. When a government tries to remove human rights its something to worry about!. not that the ECHR actually gets involved that much, thousands of cases are taken there, very few are up held.
4) Millions of jobs are linked to the EU, exiting puts them in Jeopardy ( about 1 in 10 UK jobs )
5) global economic stability, Exiting the EU is likely to cause a massive global recession.
6) EU funded projects, Liverpool capitol of culture for example, Liverpool ( and Glasgow ) are booming because of investment by the EU, that investment wouldn't have happened if the cash was dished out by London.
7) Consumer protection
8) Security, Despite what the outers think, we are more secure in the EU than out.



But I thought I would point out your points for exiting are pretty much null and void

 

[EalingBlue2]

I was thinking about the extreme views on both side and it's all fear so I thought I would return the debate to the positives. I think the following reasons are why we should exit.

1. Democracy and the fact that we can hold those enacting the majority of our laws to account. Sovereignty is the most important thing for me.
2. We will keep 250m per week that we give to the Eu. This is the net fact figure taken from that eu facts website. This is a billion a month we can spend on the nhs, roads and schools.
3. We can have a coherent immigration policy focusing on the skills and people we need globally as opposed to anybody is allowed in simply on the basis of an Euro passport. To take the heat out of the immigration debate I must say I recognise the need for continued immigration into the uk it's vital for growth but out gives us the basis to be more global to get the best people.
4. There will be at least some rest bite on the support services on the front line, housing, nhs and schools and we can plan properly our population growth and plan our housing policy and schools based on the fact that we now can control the immigration numbers.
5. We will be able to agree and trade on a more decisive basis globally without the baggage of Europe. Trade agreements are I am afraid a bit of a myth. Indeed trading globally is not to the exclusion of Europe. that would continue.

Can I ask the inners to just put forward 5 benefits of staying in. I would prefer it if these were benefits not counter arguments to mine which then leads to extreme views. I would hope given we have been in the Eu for over 30 years this is really easy because all you do is pick actual examples of what currently is happening and what benefits the Euro is actually doing for us and just list them

There are loads and all will be attributed by Brexiters as things that will be fine after Brexit, or are nothing to do with it. Unprecedented decades of European wealth, peace, cooperation, cosmopolitan living, eyes opening up to the world etc would all have happened anyway. The automatic argument is anything good would have happened anyway and anything bad wouldn't - so what's the point

 

[hgblue]

There are loads and all will be attributed by Brexiters as things that will be fine after Brexit, or are nothing to do with it. Unprecedented decades of European wealth, peace, cooperation, cosmopolitan living, eyes opening up to the world etc would all have happened anyway. The automatic argument is anything good would have happened anyway and anything bad wouldn't - so what's the point

Cooperation? Cosmopolitan living? Eyes opening up to the world? Quality.

 

[blueonblue]

1) The EU share of world output has fallen from 30% (1980) to 17% (2015) thanks to growth elsewhere ( IMF World economic outlook 2015)
2) And Terrorists, criminals and illegal immigrants.
3) Since when does human rights have anything to do with being a member of a trade block
4)Utter bollocks, speculation and not the facts you were asked for
5)The EU currency the euro is far from stable
6) The EU fund nothing
7)? explain
8) Open v controlled borders should be a no brainer for most, see #2

 

[SWP's back]

Happy that those are stuck to to be honest can't see an issue with either , I will always be who I am regardless of where I move and will always have a huge interest in a place I was born, brought up, family and friends live and I am a citizen of as are my kids .

Still not "we" though is it.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

There must be some facts and evidence that can be pointed to as to what Europe does for us for a billion (net) a month. I am educated and open minded. I was an inner when this started. . The debate seems to be about exiters stating why they would leave and the inners saying that's shit britain is corrupt as well, you are a racist, business leaders want it , Gravity will stop, we will fall into the sea etc.

Just please factually what is good that makes my life so much better everyday that comes from Europe that makes that billion a month and the loss of democracy all worth it. It seems really hard for inners to do so I will help.

I think it's a good thing that if I wanted to live in France or Spain, I simply could. Equally if retired I could draw my uk pension whilst over there. I think that is good. I don't know whether this won't be allowed after we exit but the principle of this is good. I still don't think the price of this is worth it but it is one example I can think of a good thing.

 

[grunge]

1) The EU share of world output has fallen from 30% (1980) to 17% (2015) thanks to growth elsewhere ( IMF World economic outlook 2015)
2) And Terrorists, criminals and illegal immigrants.
3) Since when does human rights have anything to do with being a member of a trade block
4)Utter bollocks, speculation and not the facts you were asked for
5)The EU currency the euro is far from stable
6) The EU fund nothing
7)? explain
8) Open v controlled borders should be a no brainer for most, see #2

Not sure if your referencing my list here but will assume you are,

1) Despite that the EU is still the largest Economic group in the world ( depending on who you look at by the look of it, Its either biggest or 2nd biggest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) )
2) would happen anyway, we have passport control anyways, nothing would change on the illegal's front, If Criminals and Terrorists want in they will get in. Not that we've had any terrorists come in yet.
3) was added as the Tories have said they want to break away from the ECHR in the past, its not clear if this is linked with the EU exit. Hence me saying as much.
4) https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-jobs-and-eu/
5) And us exiting it would make it even less stable and would likley cause a global crash.
6) Symantics, the EU get given money by member states, that money is then dished out by them. ergo they fund things!. the same way a government funds things from Tax.
7) A bit off the wall but the EU set up and provides a lot of consumer protection that we didn't have before and may not have after. be it refunds to saftey levels etc.
8) See point 2.

 

[SWP's back]

Cooperation? Cosmopolitan living? Eyes opening up to the world? Quality.

To be fair, without the EU, Ealing would never have seen Australia.

 

[SWP's back]

Not sure if your referencing my list here but will assume you are,

1) Despite that the EU is still the largest Economic group in the world
2) would happen anyway, we have passport control anyways, nothing would change on the illegal's front, If Criminals and Terrorists want in they will get in. Not that we've had any terrorists come in yet.
3) was added as the Tories have said they want to break away from the ECHR in the past, its not clear if this is linked with the EU exit. Hence me saying as much.
4) https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-jobs-and-eu/
5) And us exiting it would make it even less stable and would likley cause a global crash.
6) Symantics, the EU get given money by member states, that money is then dished out by them. ergo they fund things!. the same way a government funds things from Tax.
7) A bit off the wall but the EU set up and provides a lot of consumer protection that we didn't have before and may not have after. be it refunds to saftey levels etc.
8) See point 2.

If the EU is such a power house then why would the UK leaving cause the euro to fail and a global crash?

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

If the EU is such a power house then why would the UK leaving cause the euro to fail and a global crash?

Oh that's good.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Still not "we" though is it.

We is what you want it to be, as a British Citizen and voter I will think legally it is as well!