EU referendum

[BigJoe#1]

Sorry I'm not sure my sarcasm came through in written form.

Sorry, my bad! 80)

 

[Metal Biker]

That's the thing with the Norway one, its paid per capita, so the exact same deal for us would be far more expensive.

According to this we would be paying £2.5-£4bn a year.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/16/britain-would-be-diminished-by-leaving-eu

With the rebate we have it would still save us £6-£8bn, but then, according to this, we would have no EMPS and no seat at the table but still have to abide by the EU laws.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model

So in this case the outers don't really get anything they want out of the deal bar a saving in cash that this government would probably use to pay down the deficit rather than re invest.

We don't have to abide by EU laws, we only have to abide by the trading rules. The context of the language is really important here. No, we'd have no discussion at the table in regards to trading, just like China, India, the US etc. But just like China, India and the US, the UK will be governing itself which is the crux of many people's discussion. We no longer wish to be 'ruled' by Brussels.

What we have to pay to the EU can easily be made up by trading with BRICS, the US except we won't need the EU's red tape to get around things because we'll be dealing with those trading partners directly. I'm not fussed about how much money we'll not have to pay, i'm realistic that we'll need to pay something to the EU in order to keep trading with them. The point is I want us to be politically separated from the EU. True we might only have aroun £8bn a year better off, but £8bn a year better off and free to govern ourselves independently from Brussels, free to trade around the world as our own representative rather than having an unelected bureaucrat speak on our behalf?

 

[grunge]

We don't have to abide by EU laws, we only have to abide by the trading rules. The context of the language is really important here. No, we'd have no discussion at the table in regards to trading, just like China, India, the US etc. But just like China, India and the US, the UK will be governing itself which is the crux of many people's discussion. We no longer wish to be 'ruled' by Brussels.

What we have to pay to the EU can easily be made up by trading with BRICS, the US except we won't need the EU's red tape to get around things because we'll be dealing with those trading partners directly. I'm not fussed about how much money we'll not have to pay, i'm realistic that we'll need to pay something to the EU in order to keep trading with them. The point is I want us to be politically separated from the EU. True we might only have aroun £8bn a year better off, but £8bn a year better off and free to govern ourselves independently from Brussels, free to trade around the world as our own representative rather than having an unelected bureaucrat speak on our behalf?

Your good to talk to about this, reasoned and well versed in it by the look of it.

The only thing that would make me consider voting out is the TTP stuff, but then we will probably have to sign up for that anyways.

 

[Metal Biker]

The problem is that the various Leave campaigns are trying to avoid the debate about the UK's relationship with the EU post exit. They're campaigning on the basis of "They need us more than we need them". The notion that the EU will be so scared of jeopardising the 10% of their exports that go to the UK, that they'll hand over a free trade agreement with no strings attached. No contribution to the budget, no need to comply with any directives, especially the free movement of labour.

That might be a successful strategy as a means of winning the referendum, but it will create an unholy mess afterwards. The debate over which model would best suit the UK will only really start after the referendum. And the outers will be totally divided on what the UK's negotiating position should be. It will take months, probably well over a year, before they will be in a position to start serious negotiations with the EU.

"They need us more than we need them" also means that they will not have a real mandate to negotiate anything other than a free trade agreement with no strings attached. Any divergence from that position will not only create a huge split among the Outers, it will also leave them open to the argument that they won the referendum on a false prospectus. There is a huge majority of pro EU MP's in parliament and they will jump at the chance to use that as a justification for forcing a second referendum.

The outers will probably end up winning the battle but losing the war.

It's a good job that the members of the Leave campaign won't be negotiating with the EU, post exit, and if the European Commission wishes to be petty about mudslinging in a referendum campaign, i'd rather not deal with them, to be fair. Our government works for us and will, regardless of the result, negotiate the best deal possible. I'd like to think both sides can be mature and realstic about the connotations of either result.

 

[CityStu]

The only thing that would make me consider voting out is the TTP stuff, but then we will probably have to sign up for that anyways.

Why? If you don't want it then vote for a party that won't sign up for it. If another party gets into office that does want to sign up for it, protest it. All of that is much easier and your voice is much louder on a national level rather than a continental one.

 

[Metal Biker]

Your good to talk to about this, reasoned and well versed in it by the look of it.

The only thing that would make me consider voting out is the TTP stuff, but then we will probably have to sign up for that anyways.

The EU is definitely pushing TTIP on Europe, I believe it could be under pressure from the US more than anything, given the figures being bandied about of £100bn for Europe, the US and the world. That's a pretty nest egg they'll want to come to fruition but at a cost to the rest of us.

An exit would mean that, since it's an EU directive and not a EEA one, TTIP would not affect us if it came to pass after we left.

 

[Metal Biker]

Just seen on my Facebook timeline the stronger in Europe campaign advert which says "Which Swansea stars would be affected if we left the EU", I imagine the team changes depending where you are in the country. It seems to have backfired though, the majority of the comments are from Swansea fans celebrating the loss of Gomis whose image appears on the advert haha

This is the misinformation the SiE campaign occasionally trots out. Nothing would happen to non-EU and EU players as the exit we want is a political one. The rights to work and live within European countries would remain if Britain left the EU as the Free Movement Directive applies for the EEA, not solely EU member states, which in itself is a consolidation of a much older directive that was already in place before the EU was even formed. I do applaud the humour of the Swansea fans, though!

 

[grunge]

Why? If you don't want it then vote for a party that won't sign up for it. If another party gets into office that does want to sign up for it, protest it. All of that is much easier and your voice is much louder on a national level rather than a continental one.

Because it will probably be in force before the next general election!. If leaving the EU Guaranteed not being included in it then it would be a feather in the bow of the out campaign for me.

 

[grunge]

The EU is definitely pushing TTIP on Europe, I believe it could be under pressure from the US more than anything, given the figures being bandied about of £100bn for Europe, the US and the world. That's a pretty nest egg they'll want to come to fruition but at a cost to the rest of us.

An exit would mean that, since it's an EU directive and not a EEA one, TTIP would not affect us if it came to pass after we left.

Thats the thing, if they are forcing it on the EU then they will be able to force it on us if they choose too. assuming we want to trade with the USA. same goes for the likes of China.

If they are big enough to bully the EU they are big enough to stomp on us.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

The EU is definitely pushing TTIP on Europe, I believe it could be under pressure from the US more than anything, given the figures being bandied about of £100bn for Europe, the US and the world. That's a pretty nest egg they'll want to come to fruition but at a cost to the rest of us.

An exit would mean that, since it's an EU directive and not a EEA one, TTIP would not affect us if it came to pass after we left.

It would, as would TPP