EU referendum

[yep]

You can trust the EU- honest!

In 2005 Tony Blair agreed to surrender a large portion of the British rebate (40%) in return for a promise of Common Agriculture Policy (CAP) reform.


It cost us 10.5 billion pounds up to 2013.

We are still waiting!

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Again either you're mis-reading what is written or choosing to be ignorant, not sure which.

I pointed out that UKIP are predominantly considered as having immigration high on their agenda, indeed you could argue it's the only item on their agenda. In these circumstances there could be a number of moderate voters who would be deterred from voting Leave as they would be worried that they'd be classified as being UKIP supporters and racist, which you will find the majority of Brexit voters are neither.

Hope this helps.

I think his point is that no one would know. You could swear blind you are voting stay going in, vote leave, swear blind you voted stay, coming out.
There is no deterrent in the voting booth, thankfully. Unless you have Martin Edwards having a peep.
I see an unemployed EU migrant got the job at his Dad's firm.

 

[Martyn]

havn't taken any notice of the polls up to now and except from posters on here saying which way they swing i have not met one IN person and that's from loads of people i know, is it the area i am in or a good indication for the outers

Current odds would suggest most people will vote to remain:
Stay 1/6
Leave 4/1

Like you, apart from close family, people I see on Facebook and from what I hear the general public talking about, you'd think Leave would have the upper hand.

 

[YPhrunts]

It would appear that the threat from the back bench Tories to seek a vote to get rid of Cameron as soon as practicable has had an effect on him because he seems to have come to his senses, sort of.

From The Mail.


But the premier did say he would step back from making personal attacks against Tory opponents during the rest of the campaign.

He also reiterated that he believes 'Britain could thrive' outside the EU.

'I withdraw absolutely nothing I've previously said. Britain is an amazing country. We can find our way whatever the British people choose,' he said.

'But the question for us is not are we a great country, have we got a brilliant economy, have we got talented businesses, have we got great entrepreneurs, have we got amazing universities, brilliant scientists? Can we go on as we have in the past, breaking new boundaries in all these areas? The question is how do we do best?'


Mr Cameron insisted the 'Special Relationship' with the US would survive despite a spat with Donald Trump.

The PM heavily criticised Mr Trump, now poised to become the Republican candidate in November's presidential election, after he suggested Muslims should be barred from entering America.

Mr Trump has since said he has been invited to Downing Street, but aides have indicated he will want an apology.

At the press conference today, Mr Cameron said he would be happy to work with whoever is leading the US.

'I believe in the special relationship,' he said.

Asked if he would now congratulate Mr Trump on securing the Republican nomination, the PM said he 'would congratulate anybody who could get through those marathon processes'.

What an absolutely two faced git.

 

[Balti]

It would appear that the threat from the back bench Tories to seek a vote to get rid of Cameron as soon as practicable has had an effect on him because he seems to have come to his senses, sort of.

From The Mail.


But the premier did say he would step back from making personal attacks against Tory opponents during the rest of the campaign.

He also reiterated that he believes 'Britain could thrive' outside the EU.

'I withdraw absolutely nothing I've previously said. Britain is an amazing country. We can find our way whatever the British people choose,' he said.

'But the question for us is not are we a great country, have we got a brilliant economy, have we got talented businesses, have we got great entrepreneurs, have we got amazing universities, brilliant scientists? Can we go on as we have in the past, breaking new boundaries in all these areas? The question is how do we do best?'


Mr Cameron insisted the 'Special Relationship' with the US would survive despite a spat with Donald Trump.

The PM heavily criticised Mr Trump, now poised to become the Republican candidate in November's presidential election, after he suggested Muslims should be barred from entering America.

Mr Trump has since said he has been invited to Downing Street, but aides have indicated he will want an apology.

At the press conference today, Mr Cameron said he would be happy to work with whoever is leading the US.

'I believe in the special relationship,' he said.

Asked if he would now congratulate Mr Trump on securing the Republican nomination, the PM said he 'would congratulate anybody who could get through those marathon processes'.

What an absolutely two faced git.

politician in hypocrisy shocker!!!

 

[KenTheLandlord]

It would appear that the threat from the back bench Tories to seek a vote to get rid of Cameron as soon as practicable has had an effect on him because he seems to have come to his senses, sort of.

From The Mail.


But the premier did say he would step back from making personal attacks against Tory opponents during the rest of the campaign.

He also reiterated that he believes 'Britain could thrive' outside the EU.

'I withdraw absolutely nothing I've previously said. Britain is an amazing country. We can find our way whatever the British people choose,' he said.

'But the question for us is not are we a great country, have we got a brilliant economy, have we got talented businesses, have we got great entrepreneurs, have we got amazing universities, brilliant scientists? Can we go on as we have in the past, breaking new boundaries in all these areas? The question is how do we do best?'


Mr Cameron insisted the 'Special Relationship' with the US would survive despite a spat with Donald Trump.

The PM heavily criticised Mr Trump, now poised to become the Republican candidate in November's presidential election, after he suggested Muslims should be barred from entering America.

Mr Trump has since said he has been invited to Downing Street, but aides have indicated he will want an apology.

At the press conference today, Mr Cameron said he would be happy to work with whoever is leading the US.

'I believe in the special relationship,' he said.

Asked if he would now congratulate Mr Trump on securing the Republican nomination, the PM said he 'would congratulate anybody who could get through those marathon processes'.

What an absolutely two faced git.

Cameron is of no interest to anyone looking to the future of the UK, Europe and the relationship each has with the other.
Just a matter of time before he stands down, either this year or next.
A complete dead man walking.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Current odds would suggest most people will vote to remain:
Stay 1/6
Leave 4/1

Like you, apart from close family, people I see on Facebook and from what I hear the general public talking about, you'd think Leave would have the upper hand.

It was exactly the same in the republican debate in Aus, the Scottish nationalist vote etc. Voters for change are a lot more vocal, a lot more dramatic and a lot more loud and proud. Voters for the same partly because they don't need to and partly because they don't want a lecture or deep chat tend to be quieter and just let their vote do the talking. People in Scotland talked about it seeking like 90% were pro independent based on discourse

 

[EalingBlue2]

You can trust the EU- honest!

In 2005 Tony Blair agreed to surrender a large portion of the British rebate (40%) in return for a promise of Common Agriculture Policy (CAP) reform.


It cost us 10.5 billion pounds up to 2013.

We are still waiting!

I would trust the EU before I'd trust the Tories and probably before I'd trust Tony Blair

 

[EalingBlue2]

That would mean altering the existing Treaties and that is never going to happen, it can't, it would mean the end of the Union.

We already have a Eurozone and non Eurozone situation developing and I see no reason why the treaty can't be changed to reflect this? The Eurozone will be free to continue with their project of ever closer union and we'd have a more looser relationship which suits us. Failing that we just negotiate the best possible deal for ourselves outside the EU. I'm not particularly bothered either way.[/QUOTE]
If out wins a second referendum will be inevitable and we will end up having referenda on bloody everything as we will have set the precedent of undermining our established parliamentary democracy and giving politicians the chance to abdicate responsibility for everything. That said maybe technology means we can have an app and vote on everything 1 vote each day from 10-1030

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I would trust the EU before I'd trust the Tories and probably before I'd trust Tony Blair

At least you get a vote on whether it is the Tories or Blair Part Deux! With the EU, you get to like it or lump it, but not choose it! Something wrong with THAT version of "democracy"!

 

[ChicagoBlue]

If out wins a second referendum will be inevitable and we will end up having referenda on bloody everything as we will have set the precedent of undermining our established parliamentary democracy and giving politicians the chance to abdicate responsibility for everything. That said maybe technology means we can have an app and vote on everything 1 vote each day from 10-1030

But, I thought you said that if we could just get our shit together and have this vote in a few years...???! Methinks you were jesting, huh?!

Btw, when you discuss "set the precedent of undermining our established parliamentary democracy and giving politicians the chance to abdicate responsibility for everything," you are almost EXACTLY describing the overbearing approach the EU is taking to its nation states...even though you appear to want it to mean NOT VOTING FOR YOUR OWN FUTURE...which, last I checked, was almost the definition of that pesky democracy thing you were talking about!

Horrible when what you explain what it is you really want and what you have said you want is the exact opposite, isn't it?!

I would suggest that you just want Europe, and whatever that means, your, my, and everyone else's actual democratic votes notwithstanding.

No doubt you will get what you want (no Brexit), but democracy will lose...parliamentary or not.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

It was exactly the same in the republican debate in Aus, the Scottish nationalist vote etc. Voters for change are a lot more vocal, a lot more dramatic and a lot more loud and proud. Voters for the same partly because they don't need to and partly because they don't want a lecture or deep chat tend to be quieter and just let their vote do the talking. People in Scotland talked about it seeking like 90% were pro independent based on discourse

People fear change. People feel safe with the status quo. People don't like being made to feel afraid for the their future by the "great unknown," especially when it is spouted ad infinitum by those in power. It is logical, regardless of whether it is intelligent or right. Agents for change always have to make their case, and when the established bullhorn of "democracy" is set to 10 and in opposition, it often makes the uphill struggle seemingly impossible. That is a shame, but that is politics.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Cameron is of no interest to anyone looking to the future of the UK, Europe and the relationship each has with the other.
Just a matter of time before he stands down, either this year or next.
A complete dead man walking.

Agreed, he told us that himself. Do you think for one moment he would have called a referendum if he had any intention of trying to remain in N.10at the next election.

Quite frankly, like the rest of tenure in office I don't he gives a fuck, him ans Osborne are just playing at it. When it all goes tits up, they'll shrug their shoulders and fuck of to several high paid city non exec directorships and take their places in Brussels.

 

[EalingBlue2]

But, I thought you said that if we could just get our shit together and have this vote in a few years...???! Methinks you were jesting, huh?!

Btw, when you discuss "set the precedent of undermining our established parliamentary democracy and giving politicians the chance to abdicate responsibility for everything," you are almost EXACTLY describing the overbearing approach the EU is taking to its nation states...even though you appear to want it to mean NOT VOTING FOR YOUR OWN FUTURE...which, last I checked, was almost the definition of that pesky democracy thing you were talking about!

Horrible when what you explain what it is you really want and what you have said you want is the exact opposite, isn't it?!

I would suggest that you just want Europe, and whatever that means, your, my, and everyone else's actual democratic votes notwithstanding.

No doubt you will get what you want (no Brexit), but democracy will lose...parliamentary or not.

Listen I am not against referenda per se I just think if you have one , then another it could become habit forming. I don't agree with this one now but I do accept if significant change happens to the country such as when we went in, if we went into the euro or if we left the EU there should be one. If there is though it should have been a vote on a known, or we leave , this is the deal we leave for, this is how we exit and we have already seriously understood the consequences. I am not personally a lover of them MPs should decide but I would not oppose one in those circumstances. The truth of this one is it was entirely about short term Tory politics not the good of Britain which is why it's a mess and why the consequences either way will be more negative than they needed to be.

As I have said before I believe in greater federalism even globalism where it benefits and think a global currency and tax regime to be inevitable in my lifetime. With that I see more power to the regions and even cities where that benefits. saying democracy works best at the UK level is completely an unsustainable argument it is an arbitrary size and democracy and government structure can work best for different things at different sizes. In many ways it's what the US does better than Europe (though there are many things it doesn't).

 

[EalingBlue2]

People fear change. People feel safe with the status quo. People don't like being made to feel afraid for the their future by the "great unknown," especially when it is spouted ad infinitum by those in power. It is logical, regardless of whether it is intelligent or right. Agents for change always have to make their case, and when the established bullhorn of "democracy" is set to 10 and in opposition, it often makes the uphill struggle seemingly impossible. That is a shame, but that is politics.

You base that assumption that change is always good - it sometimes is and it often isn't. People who voted for Mandela voted for change but so did people who voted for Hitler and both Martin Luther King and the KKK did too.

 

[EalingBlue2]

At least you get a vote on whether it is the Tories or Blair Part Deux! With the EU, you get to like it or lump it, but not choose it! Something wrong with THAT version of "democracy"!

Democracy is going to be the end of western liberal society as democracy is going to bankrupt our world as we know it, democracy is short term and deeply damaging to the planet and the future. That said I wouldn't swap it as the alternative is worse, I just wish we could work out how to fix democracy before it kills itself

 

[BigJoe#1]

Listen I am not against referenda per se I just think if you have one , then another it could become habit forming. I don't agree with this one now but I do accept if significant change happens to the country such as when we went in, if we went into the euro or if we left the EU there should be one. If there is though it should have been a vote on a known, or we leave , this is the deal we leave for, this is how we exit and we have already seriously understood the consequences. I am not personally a lover of them MPs should decide but I would not oppose one in those circumstances. The truth of this one is it was entirely about short term Tory politics not the good of Britain which is why it's a mess and why the consequences either way will be more negative than they needed to be.

As I have said before I believe in greater federalism even globalism where it benefits and think a global currency and tax regime to be inevitable in my lifetime. With that I see more power to the regions and even cities where that benefits. saying democracy works best at the UK level is completely an unsustainable argument it is an arbitrary size and democracy and government structure can work best for different things at different sizes. In many ways it's what the US does better than Europe (though there are many things it doesn't).

IF and I accept its a BIG IF, we vote to leave there is a huge possibility we will be asked the question again BUT only if the EU come to the UK with a significant offer for reforming itself which will put the UK into a much stronger negotiating position than Cameron enjoyed earlier this term. Whoever the PM is at that time will have a major dilemma, especially if it's Boris. As I posted earlier I think we are in a terrible position because regardless of whether we're in or out after the 23rd we are to all intents and purposes a busted flush.

It is interesting to note that Cameron has changed his stance significantly. He is now saying we have a strong economy and are in a healthy enough state to survive should we vote to leave. I do find that to be a bit well.... I won't use the word disingenuous but let's say strange.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Democracy is going to be the end of western liberal society as democracy is going to bankrupt our world as we know it, democracy is short term and deeply damaging to the planet and the future. That said I wouldn't swap it as the alternative is worse, I just wish we could work out how to fix democracy before it kills itself

Agree, surely that has to involve PR so that all of us can believe our vote really counts. I accept that means we will have to live with permanent coalition governments which, for sone [the two major UK parties] may just be a step too far.

 

[steviemc]

Listen I am not against referenda per se I just think if you have one , then another it could become habit forming. I don't agree with this one now but I do accept if significant change happens to the country such as when we went in, if we went into the euro or if we left the EU there should be one. If there is though it should have been a vote on a known, or we leave , this is the deal we leave for, this is how we exit and we have already seriously understood the consequences. I am not personally a lover of them MPs should decide but I would not oppose one in those circumstances. The truth of this one is it was entirely about short term Tory politics not the good of Britain which is why it's a mess and why the consequences either way will be more negative than they needed to be.

As I have said before I believe in greater federalism even globalism where it benefits and think a global currency and tax regime to be inevitable in my lifetime. With that I see more power to the regions and even cities where that benefits. saying democracy works best at the UK level is completely an unsustainable argument it is an arbitrary size and democracy and government structure can work best for different things at different sizes. In many ways it's what the US does better than Europe (though there are many things it doesn't).

Ah but...the truth of democracy on our forum says the absolute contrary. According to our poll it suggests that the majority think your ideals are unsuitable or at least unsustainable for the foreseeable. You either trust democracy or you don't. You can't advocate democracy on the basis of 'as long as it agrees with my views'. To do so either refutes democracy or presumes that one 'knows better' than anyone else. That's exactly why politicians fuck up so often.

I think at this point I can comfortably rest my case ;-)

 

[EalingBlue2]

Ah but...the truth of democracy on our forum says the absolute contrary. According to our poll it suggests that the majority think your ideals are unsuitable or at least unsustainable for the foreseeable. You either trust democracy or you don't. You can't advocate democracy on the basis of 'as long as it agrees with my views'. To do so either refutes democracy or presumes that one 'knows better' than anyone else. That's exactly why politicians fuck up so often.

I think at this point I can comfortably rest my case ;-)

If there was a region that was 90% male probably an even higher % white , a very high % teen to 60 and 99% city fans you would have a great point that place only exists virtually though but if you want to ban posts from non British EU citizens unless they have passed a skills test them work on it with @Ric

I advocate democracy but I think it will cause the death of itself!