EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%
  • Total voters
    1,050
Status
Not open for further replies.
Tim of the Oak said:
We have had more Liberty in Europe as part of the European Union. Russia, for example, would love to see a fragmented Europe!
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Yes of course it would. Because the European Union is increasing it's efforts in building an EU army on Russia's doorstep. Wouldn't you be a tad concerned if Europe kept blaming you for all the troubles in the world as well as amassing a large military force to 'combat' you? What would the outcome of Crimea been if the EU army was already up and running?

The EU is antagonising the situation, not bringing peace or liberty for that matter, unless your definition of liberty differs from mine, but imposing the Greeks with a debt that has become politically impossible to repay, enforcing member states to adhere to migration levels they cannot cope with, implementing laws and regulations without the right to refuse them, overruling the results of national referendums that go against the EU and threatening to dispose of governments that do not meet the EU's standards. All these decisions created by unelected officials that are backed and sponsored by representatives of the big businesses, banker and corporations whilst selling out the citizens in regards to TTIP whilst wasting billions investing in a currency that has failed; certainly doesn't sound like 'liberty' to me.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Yes of course it would. Because the European Union is increasing it's efforts in building an EU army on Russia's doorstep. Wouldn't you be a tad concerned if Europe kept blaming you for all the troubles in the world as well as amassing a large military force to 'combat' you? What would the outcome of Crimea been if the EU army was already up and running?

The EU is antagonising the situation, not bringing peace or liberty for that matter, unless your definition of liberty differs from mine, but imposing the Greeks with a debt that has become politically impossible to repay, enforcing member states to adhere to migration levels they cannot cope with, implementing laws and regulations without the right to refuse them, overruling the results of national referendums that go against the EU and threatening to dispose of governments that do not meet the EU's standards. All these decisions created by unelected officials that are backed and sponsored by representatives of the big businesses, banker and corporations whilst selling out the citizens in regards to TTIP whilst wasting billions investing in a currency that has failed; certainly doesn't sound like 'liberty' to me.
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I value competence as well as Liberty. We voted in Tony Blair and soon he was pursuing a crazy war in Iraq. David Cameron only got a quarter of the voting age population supporting but he's helped To spread Al Qaeda and ISIS through military interventions in the Middle East.

Yes the Ukraine Governmeny is unelected and the EU are on dodgy ground supporting them. However, Russia hasn't distinguished itself in this conflict and a lot of the rest of your points about the EU wouldn't stand up to scrutiny eg countries aren't forced to take quotas of immigrants and most of our laws are created in Parliament!

We have had 70 years of (largely) peace in Western and Central Europe through closer cooperation between countries!
 
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Tim of the Oak said:
I value competence as well as Liberty. We voted in Tony Blair and soon he was pursuing a crazy war in Iraq. David Cameron only got a quarter of the voting age population supporting but he's helped To spread Al Qaeda and ISIS through interventions in the
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Both politicians you mention value Britain staying in the EU, one of whom tried to become President of the damn thing. Yes Cameron only got a quarter, but guess what, Labour and Miliband got even less. So what's your point? In the EU we have had 0% say in electing the Commissioners who make our laws. THAT is the main issue here. If we, the British public, dislike those who claim to represent us, we can remove them in democratic elections. EU Commissioners cannot be removed by public vote. Remember that the EU is pushing for more integration, more sovereignty handed over to them. They see national parliaments as an obstruction to what they perceive to be "the best course for Europe". They don't care about the issues affecting national governments and their peoples; they seek to promote a united Europe, a very, very unpopular notion across the continent, which is constantly ignored.

Is that not enough to get some alarm bells ringing? You can hold whatever view you wish in wanting to remain part of the EU, but claiming that the EU has brought 'peace and liberty' to British citizens, not only greatly undermines and devalues our own law system and those who endeavour to protect it, but is a completely disingenuous notion. Leaving the EU would not mean an end to either of these.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Both politicians you mention value Britain staying in the EU, one of whom tried to become President of the damn thing. Yes Cameron only got a quarter, but guess what, Labour and Miliband got even less. So what's your point? In the EU we have had 0% say in electing the Commissioners who make our laws.

Is that not enough to get some alarm bells ringing? You can hold whatever view you wish in wanting to remain part of the EU, but claiming that the EU has brought 'peace and liberty' to British citizens, not only greatly undermines and devalues our own law system and those who endeavour to protect it, but is a completely disingenuous notion. Leaving the EU would not mean an end to either of these.
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Well done on getting "disingenuous" into your argument! Of course the EU has helped with peace and stability in Europe for many years. the leaders have our armed forces have said as much!

Regarding Blair, it is widely known that a contributory factor to the Iraq War was that he sided with Bush rather than the EU!
 
Tim of the Oak said:
Yes the Ukraine Governmeny is unelected and the EU are on dodgy ground supporting them. However, Russia hasn't distinguished itself in this conflict and a lot of the rest of your points about the EU wouldn't stand up to scrutiny eg countries aren't forced to take quotas of immigrants and most of our laws are created in Parliament!

We have had 70 years of (largely) peace in Western and Central Europe through closer cooperation between countries!
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Which has nothing to to with the EU. The EU came about in 1992 as a political union, for many years it was the European Economic Community, a trade union. Nothing to do with sorting out war or aggression, Europe left that up to NATO and the UN. Most European nations are signed up to NATO, that's not a coincidence. It is a myth that the EU has brought peace in Europe, it's merely taking credit for other organisations hard work and efforts. It's first test was Crimea and they failed to do anything. They've failed to do anything to protect the Belgians and French against ISIS attacks when we're all supposed to be able to freely share information to prevent such atrocious activities. I've not seen the EU do anything to preserve this peace. If you can tell me something specific that the EU has done, i'd like for you to tell me. And by that I mean without the support, intervention or influence of either NATO, the US or the UN.
 
Tim of the Oak said:
Well done on getting "disingenuous" into your argument! Of course the EU has helped with peace and stability in Europe for many years. the leaders have our armed forces have said as much!

Regarding Blair, it is widely known that a contributory factor to the Iraq War was that he sided with Bush rather than the EU!
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Erm, there have also been leaders and ex-generals of our Armed Forces that have stated the exact opposite about the EU helping with peace. In fact some stated recently, one General Sir Michael Rose, that "Sovereignty and defence are indivisible. European law, in my view, has already seriously undermined UK's combat effectiveness as a result of the intrusion of European law into national law."

"I believe that the UK's contribution to European defence can manifestly be better made solely through Nato than by trying to spread our limited resources too thinly in order to include European defence and security policy initiatives into UK's defence programme,".

The EU has been building their EU Army in secret. Why keep a project as big and as important as that a secret from the public? Blair wants an EU army. Imagine a continent sized armed forces, going to war on the whim of unelected commissioners, placing the vote to MEP's who appointed them there. I can think of nothing more horrific.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Which has nothing to to with the EU. The EU came about in 1992 as a political union, for many years it was the European Economic Community, a trade union. Nothing to do with sorting out war or aggression, Europe left that up to NATO and the UN. Most European nations are signed up to NATO, that's not a coincidence. It is a myth that the EU has brought peace in Europe, it's merely taking credit for other organisations hard work and efforts. It's first test was Crimea and they failed to do anything. They've failed to do anything to protect the Belgians and French against ISIS attacks when we're all supposed to be able to freely share information to prevent such atrocious activities. I've not seen the EU do anything to preserve this peace. If you can tell me something specific that the EU has done, i'd like for you to tell me. And by that I mean without the support, intervention or influence of either NATO, the US or the UN.
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Good post mate but it's incorrect. I posted much earlier in the thread how the Germans and French who set up the original Coal and Steel organisation that preceded the Common Market sawvpeace in Europe as a key objectives.

Yes you are right that NATO has played an important role too but the fact that European countries collaborate on trade and other areas makes a war between us and then less likely.

You asked for specific examples of what the EU has done so here you go:

- Strengthened workers rights in terms of equal pay, working time and agency work.
- brought together networks of common interest in science and police investigations etc
- cut charges for people travelling across Europe eg mobile phone charges
- encouraged the movement of goods, services and people.

Going back to war issues. I think it is 40 years since the death of Franco and the civil war in Spain and subsequent persecution cost the lives of 500,000 thousand people. The EU has encouraged the development of democracies. NATO didn't lrevent the persecution of Spanish / Catalunian civilians!

The EU is far from perfect and I have criticisms of it too - but I focussed on answering your questions!
 
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I think it will be a fairly narrow IN - say 45% Brexit 55% Remain - then we sit back and watch the Tory party meltdown.

Alternatively its a narrow OUT 45% Remain 55% Brexit - then we sit back and watch the Tory party meltdown.

Either way Call Me Dave - whom some would have as the consummate political operator has dropped a fucking huge bollock with this - backed into a corner by a none existent UKIP threat. Him and his "advisors" never calculated the number of votes expressed as seats - panicked and promised the vote thus sealing his own political demise.
 
I'm still undecided but respect to to Tim and Metal. Far more logical and eloquant explanations of their positions the the politicians
 
Tim of the Oak said:
Good post mate but it's incorrect. I posted much earlier in the thread how the Germans and French who set up the original Coal and Steel organisation that preceded the Common Market sawvpeace in Europe as a key objectives.

Yes you are right that NATO has played an important role too but the fact that European countries collaborate on trade and other areas makes a war between us and then less likely.

You asked for specific examples of what the EU has done so here you go:

- Strengthened workers rights in terms of equal pay, working time and agency work.
- brought together networks of common interest in science and police investigations etc
- come charges for people travelling across Europe eg mobile phone charges
- encouraged the movement of goods, services and people.

Going back to war issues. I think it is 40 years since the death of Franco and the civil war in Spain and subsequent persecution cost the lives of 500,000 thousand people. The EU has encouraged the development of democracies. NATO didn't lrevent the persecution of Spanish / Catalunian civilians!

It is far from perfect and I have criticisms of it to - but I focussed on answering your questions!
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Britain didn't join the European Coal and Steel Community though, did they, so it's irrelevant bringing it up (especially since the ECSC wasn't responsible for 'peace' in Europe either, just for lowering tariffs on coal...and steel. Which was kind of the point.)

Countries choosing to do business rather than war isn't down to an organisation encouraging it and the EEC only focused on business and trade. If Britain decided it was getting a rough deal from France and decided to go to war would the EEC have stopped it? No, NATO would. If Britain decided to go to war now with a European nation, what would the EU do? Nothing, just as it did with Ukraine. Ukraine is NOT a NATO member either, before you start. But Turkey, ahhh Turkey IS a NATO member, so when tensions flaired up between Russia and Turkey a few months ago there was talk of NATO getting involved, so European nations like Britain, France and Germany, all NATO members, would have had to intervene. The EU would have had NO contribution to those discussions. That's why Ukraine wants to join NATO, so the US, UK, France and Germany will engage with Russia. Ukraine also wants the same from the EU, to distance itself from Russian reliance and bolster it's 'friends' so that the EU NATO countries will come to their aid should Russia invade. So, onto your reasons as to how the EU has brought about peace in Europe, solely by itself as an organisation.

1) Workers rights = peacetime. Riiiight, well it might stop a few riots and strikes from taking place...oh, never mind. Also equal pay has been a part of British law for decades, even before we joined the EEC, since we signed the Equal Pay Act 1970 (we joined the EEC in 1973) so that's inaccurate. Although it has since been updated into the Equality Act of 2010, but the British Parliament orchestrated that, not the EU.

2) Networks of police investigations. Yeaaah, we have Interpol. Interpol. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol And Five Eyes. As for science, Britain has some of the finest universities in the world. Europe? Or more accurately eastern europe? Remember the EU is a collection of ALL its member states so, is someone not pulling their weight in the fields of academic sciences? Well I amy be mistaken, admittedly i've not done much research there.

3) Mobile phone charges have bought peace in Europe?
chuckle-GIF.gif


I'm asking you what changes the EU has made to bring peace in Europe, not what "benefits" the EU as an organisation has brought to the people of Europe (and free mobiles is a very loose one to claim) You think that's all we small 'peasants' care about? Free mobile costs! Cheaper European Flights! Cheap booze and gogglebox on the telly! I can work anywhere in Europe, well book me on a flight to Latvia!

Encouraged goods and movement of goods. YES! THAT is that the EEC was meant to be! And what nations like Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liectenstein only WANT Europe to be. NOT a political entity which seeks nations of Europe to surrender their sovereignty to an unelected power.

No, NATO didn not prevent the execution of Spanish civilians in the Civil War because;-
A) Spain wasn't signed up to NATO during the Spanish Civil War, it joined in 1982
and B) NATO didn't exist until 1949, more than a decade after Franco gained power and whose reign ended in '75. It is also worth mentioning that most of these executions took place even before NATO existed, and there was also something bigger and more important happening at the time, like ending Nazi Tyranny.

So to summarise...you cannot provide anything that, without intervention from NATO, proves that the EU has been the sole, driving force behind peace in Europe. At least nothing that has convinced me.
 
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Whatever your view, you have to respect the founding fathers of the EU for foreseeing we'd all have mobile phones now.
 
Helmet Cole said:
Whatever your view, you have to respect the founding fathers of the EU for foreseeing we'd all have mobile phones now.
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Isn't it called a Handy in Germany? So good news they knew we'd all be after a handy then Lol !!

Its late.... and I have been drinking...... and its info I learned from Stephen Fry on QI
 
I'm going to get my toddlers ears pierced before the fucking EU make up rules about inappropriately dressed children.
 
Helmet Cole said:
Whatever your view, you have to respect the founding fathers of the EU for foreseeing we'd all have mobile phones now.
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And cheaper flights to Europe!

Where would we be without the cheaper flights to Europe?
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Britain didn't join the European Coal and Steel Community though, did they, so it's irrelevant bringing it up (especially since the ECSC wasn't responsible for 'peace' in Europe either, just for lowering tariffs on coal...and steel. Which was kind of the point.)

Countries choosing to do business rather than war isn't down to an organisation encouraging it and the EEC only focused on business and trade. If Britain decided it was getting a rough deal from France and decided to go to war would the EEC have stopped it? No, NATO would. If Britain decided to go to war now with a European nation, what would the EU do? Nothing, just as it did with Ukraine. Ukraine is NOT a NATO member either, before you start. But Turkey, ahhh Turkey IS a NATO member, so when tensions flaired up between Russia and Turkey a few months ago there was talk of NATO getting involved, so European nations like Britain, France and Germany, all NATO members, would have had to intervene. The EU would have had NO contribution to those discussions. That's why Ukraine wants to join NATO, so the US, UK, France and Germany will engage with Russia. Ukraine also wants the same from the EU, to distance itself from Russian reliance and bolster it's 'friends' so that the EU NATO countries will come to their aid should Russia invade. So, onto your reasons as to how the EU has brought about peace in Europe, solely by itself as an organisation.

1) Workers rights = peacetime. Riiiight, well it might stop a few riots and strikes from taking place...oh, never mind. Also equal pay has been a part of British law for decades, even before we joined the EEC, since we signed the Equal Pay Act 1970 (we joined the EEC in 1973) so that's inaccurate. Although it has since been updated into the Equality Act of 2010, but the British Parliament orchestrated that, not the EU.

2) Networks of police investigations. Yeaaah, we have Interpol. Interpol. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol And Five Eyes. As for science, Britain has some of the finest universities in the world. Europe? Or more accurately eastern europe? Remember the EU is a collection of ALL its member states so, is someone not pulling their weight in the fields of academic sciences? Well I amy be mistaken, admittedly i've not done much research there.

3) Mobile phone charges have bought peace in Europe?
chuckle-GIF.gif


I'm asking you what changes the EU has made to bring peace in Europe, not what "benefits" the EU as an organisation has brought to the people of Europe (and free mobiles is a very loose one to claim) You think that's all we small 'peasants' care about? Free mobile costs! Cheaper European Flights! Cheap booze and gogglebox on the telly! I can work anywhere in Europe, well book me on a flight to Latvia!

Encouraged goods and movement of goods. YES! THAT is that the EEC was meant to be! And what nations like Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liectenstein only WANT Europe to be. NOT a political entity which seeks nations of Europe to surrender their sovereignty to an unelected power.

No, NATO didn not prevent the execution of Spanish civilians in the Civil War because;-
A) Spain wasn't signed up to NATO during the Spanish Civil War, it joined in 1982
and B) NATO didn't exist until 1949, more than a decade after Franco gained power and whose reign ended in '75. It is also worth mentioning that most of these executions took place even before NATO existed, and there was also something bigger and more important happening at the time, like ending Nazi Tyranny.

So to summarise...you cannot provide anything that, without intervention from NATO, proves that the EU has been the sole, driving force behind peace in Europe. At least nothing that has convinced me.
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We didn't need to join the ECSC. Germany attacked France in both World Wars and we fought alongside France. The important point is the alliance between France and Germany.

1. The Equal Pay Act in the UK was a poor imitation of the stronger interpretations from the ECJ that referred back to the Treaty of Rome to decide on intentions. I could write you essays on this but don't want to bore the rest of Bluemoon to death. Look at the Enderby Case for further info.

2. NATO was formed in the late 40s, Franco's atrocities against the Spanish people continued well into the 50s. The crimes had an impact beyond the Spanish borders. So the Hundreds of thousands oof civilian victims of the Spanish Civil War (and following years of persecution) weren't impirtant because Hitler only helped to bomb them. He don't need to invade because he had an ally in Franco.

3 So you tried to mock me about European phone charges when I just said this was a benefit the EU had brought. No this hasn't stopped any wars lol. That said if mobiles had been about and Kaiser Wilhelm had rang his cousin George before attacking France (to clarify whether Britain would enter the War) the First World War might not have happened and the post war depression in Germany that les to Hitler's rise might not have happened!

In summary, you are looking a little bit silly misrepresenting my points lol!
 
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