EU referendum

[TonyM]

Every single person I have asked in my shop has stated that they had already voted or intended to vote out. I know it may not be very scientific but I think this is going to be a bit like the last election where the pollsters get it very wrong. I think a lot of working class people have very strong views on this and the MP"s may be in for a shock.

you are presuming there won't be a fix! :-)

 

[stonerblue]

Can't speak for other eu nations but since 2009 Portugal introduced the NHR scheme (non habitual resident) and as soon as you become a Portuguese tax resident you are exempt from paying income tax on pension income and other incomes for 10 years - it's been very successful and was brought into combat likewise incentivisation schemes from Spain - Money always finds a way! the last thing I can see happening is the Portuguese or Spanish cutting of the vast incomes that are generated by the expat community in taxes and consumer spending - they're just not in a position to do that.


All the ukranians here get the same health benefits as everyone else as soon as their registered as tax residents and theyre not even in the eu (yet).

That's because Portugal is a forward thinking and civilised country.

 

[blueonblue]

I've decided to vote selfishly for what will be better for me in the short to medium term as to make a decision on what's best for the country in the long term is not possible without knowing the future. For that reason I'm in again.

Still time to change your mind again I hope, what on the face of it may well appear to be a short term benefit may turn out to cost you a lot more in the future, the one known factor is that the EU is hell bent on full federalization.

So it boils down to do you believe that we as a country will be better off with self determination to control our destiny, in years gone by people had to fight and make sacrifice for just that, we should not just give it away on the chance we may be a few quid better off.

 

[blueonblue]

If we leave all UK expat pensioners in Europe will have their pensions frozen until individual deals can be made with each and every European country.

I dont know where you got that nugget from but its simply not true, pensions are paid by the UK not country of residence.

 

[AlgarveBlu]

I'll say it again.
I am a committed europhile, always have been, but the referendum will be 75% for Brexit.

75% not a chance! still remains to loose - the unknown factor is the expat vote - most people assume it will be a landslide for remain there but more expats reside in Australia, NZ, S.A.and the U.S. by a long chalk and they may not be so effected by the eu expats fears.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Still time to change your mind again I hope, what on the face of it may well appear to be a short term benefit may turn out to cost you a lot more in the future, the one known factor is that the EU is hell bent on full federalization.

So it boils down to do you believe that we as a country will be better off with self determination to control our destiny, in years gone by people had to fight and make sacrifice for just that, we should not just give it away on the chance we may be a few quid better off.

You hear this argument all the time, and it sounds superficially appealing doesn't it. Britain standing proudly on its own, standing for freedom and free enterprise, making its own way in the world. "We've were doing very well before we joined the EU" etc etc etc.

The problem with this rose-tinted image is it's not of Britain's recent past, it's of Britain 100 to 200 years ago. People would do well to remember our more recent past before yearning to go back to those idyllic times:

The 1960's and 70's, for example: Highest unemployment in Western Europe; strikes; power cuts; inflation; 15% interest rates; dismal productivity; shoddy workmanship; pitiful product quality (Austin Allegro anyone?); terrible public services (10 weeks to get phone line installed); awful customer service. I could go on.

That was the Britain before joining the EU. We were "the sick man of Europe".

Whilst I don't suggest that the EU has on it's own fixed all of those things for us, nevertheless, they go to show just how capable we are of fucking up our own country without the EU meddling in it. We were in a terrible state when we ran things all by ourselves.

There's no guarantee at all that a Brexit vote won't deliver a short term dip in living standards, followed by a long term ongoing decline further still.

(For the avoidance of doubt, I have finally made my mind up once and for all and I am voting Remain.)

 

[Metal Biker]

Every single person I have asked in my shop has stated that they had already voted or intended to vote out. I know it may not be very scientific but I think this is going to be a bit like the last election where the pollsters get it very wrong. I think a lot of working class people have very strong views on this and the MP"s may be in for a shock.

Anyone who publicly outs themselves (pardon the pun) to vote leave gets lambasted and ridiculed as all sorts of nasty, the same way anyone who confessed to be a Conservative voter in the last election was subjected to the same treatment and look how it turned out. A mere observation and just my own opinion, but I agree with you there about these polls; many people are keeping their true intentions hidden due to how spiteful and nasty the debate has become.

 

[manctheknife]

Different time mate....the 50's - 70's we were crippled with war debt, rebuilding the place and industrial undercutting....a chronic absence of able bodied fit young men, a generation if you like, had gone missing.

 

[west didsblue]

Still time to change your mind again I hope, what on the face of it may well appear to be a short term benefit may turn out to cost you a lot more in the future, the one known factor is that the EU is hell bent on full federalization.

So it boils down to do you believe that we as a country will be better off with self determination to control our destiny, in years gone by people had to fight and make sacrifice for just that, we should not just give it away on the chance we may be a few quid better off.

You're right. Still time to change my mind again but as an employee of a big company that works closely with European partners, it seems likely my job security is better within the EU. I am hoping to take early retirement in the next ten years so the short term success of my employer could have a significant effect on my pension in the long term. I know I'm thinking of myself and my family but at the end of the day that's what's most important to me, especially as it's definitely not clear whether the country as a whole will be better off out. From an economic point of view most experts believe we'll be better off in and the point about controlling our own destiny is based on opinions not facts. If we were in the Euro, I'd agree with you but we're not and it would be political suicide for any government to agree for us to join the Eurozone at any time in the foreseeable future.

 

[mcfc1632]

Let's remember that the only reason we are having this referendum is that Cameron was unable to control his back benchers. This referendum was called for the good of Cameron and not the good of the country.

I disagree and agree.

We would not be having this referendum if Cameron could a) control his backbenchers and more importantly, b) had not so been concerned about the impact of the UKIP vote.

But although that may be the motivation - all it emphasises is the contempt that the populace is held in by politicians - UK and European.

They (all parties) would much rather avoid being subject to public opinion - so 'for the good of the country' we should take this once in a generation opportunity - we will likely not be offered it again.

 

[AlgarveBlu]

You hear this argument all the time, and it sounds superficially appealing doesn't it. Britain standing proudly on its own, standing for freedom and free enterprise, making its own way in the world. "We've were doing very well before we joined the EU" etc etc etc.

The problem with this rose-tinted image is it's not of Britain's recent past, it's of Britain 100 to 200 years ago. People would do well to remember our more recent past before yearning to go back to those idyllic times:

The 1960's and 70's, for example: Highest unemployment in Western Europe; strikes; power cuts; inflation; 15% interest rates; dismal productivity; shoddy workmanship; pitiful product quality (Austin Allegro anyone?); terrible public services (10 weeks to get phone line installed); awful customer service. I could go on.

That was the Britain before joining the EU. We were "the sick man of Europe".

Whilst I don't suggest that the EU has on it's own fixed all of those things for us, nevertheless, they go to show just how capable we are of fucking up our own country without the EU meddling in it. We were in a terrible state when we ran things all by ourselves.

There's no guarantee at all that a Brexit vote won't deliver a short term dip in living standards, followed by a long term ongoing decline further still.

(For the avoidance of doubt, I have finally made my mind up once and for all and I am voting Remain.)

Oh well at least you weighed up both sides of the argument -

in relation to your post you could conversely say that the UK on her own created the majority of the prosperity and wealth we have today (how that wealth is distributed is another matter before the left hammer me on that one) it wasn't the eu that deregulated the city of London in 86 and turned it into what is today and just like Hong Kong, Singapore, Zurich and Geneva that scenario would not have been altered by being in the eu -

 

[mcfc1632]

Arsehole.

Indeed - this thread has shown this arsehole to be an utterly up his own arse ignorant thread vandal. Most threads get them nowadays it seems - so intent on just pouring out crap to divert from 'healthy discussion/debate'.

He has probably more posts in this thread than anyone - but has likely added the least value - even for the Remain side because he devalues their position by his continual ignorance

 

[Bodicoteblue]

Anyone who publicly outs themselves (pardon the pun) to vote leave gets lambasted and ridiculed as all sorts of nasty, the same way anyone who confessed to be a Conservative voter in the last election was subjected to the same treatment and look how it turned out. A mere observation and just my own opinion, but I agree with you there about these polls; many people are keeping their true intentions hidden due to how spiteful and nasty the debate has become.

It reminds me very much of Scotland , before the independence referendum.
Everywhere you went , there were 'yes' (pro-independence) banners , posters , rallies and marches, with the 'no's' very much keeping their own council, for fear of the abuse , threats and violence which sadly manifested themselves too often.
The polls had the two sides very even - the votes said something else.
I find that those who want change make the most noise , while those who want to maintain the status quo usually go about it quietly.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Wow. You're dead clever and that.

Stood next to you i am bona fide genius.
Your next post is an excellent example of how cockwomble stupid you are.

Take a look at how many votes UKIP and the Tories received. Both had a referendum in their manifestos.

Also look at the polling data. Around half the population want out. That's why we are having this referendum.

If Labour were more popular there wouldn't be one. But they didn't offer the chance of one and lost votes to UKIP and the Tories because of that.

Labour GAINED votes.
They had a greater positive swing of votes than the tories. 1.5% to 0.8%.
Labour accumulated more than twice the votes of ukip.
You are probably talking about seats, in a system that is monumentally idiotic.

 

[mcfc1632]

Arsehole.

Indeed - this thread has shown this arsehole to be a utterly up his own arse ignorant thread vandal. Most threads get them nowadays it seems - so intent on just pouring out crap to divert from 'healthy discussion/debate'.

He has probably more posts in this thread than anyone - but has likely added the least value - even for the Remain side because he devalues their position by his continual ignorance

I see the latest guardian telephone poll has exit at 45 percent and remain 42 percent .......

I commented yesterday that the odds on Betfair had reduced from 5.1 to 4.6 for Brexit - 3.6 this morning!!

 

[Mike N]

I disagree and agree.

We would not be having this referendum if Cameron could a) control his backbenchers and more importantly, b) had not so been concerned about the impact of the UKIP vote.

But although that may be the motivation - all it emphasises is the contempt that the populace is held in by politicians - UK and European.

They (all parties) would much rather avoid being subject to public opinion - so 'for the good of the country' we should take this once in a generation opportunity - we will likely not be offered it again.

I'm rubbish at predictions but I think it will be a narrow win for the 'remain' side. If this is the case I'd expect the matter not to go away and we might all be here again in 10 years time. Enjoy!

 

[blueonblue]

The 1960's and 70's, for example: Highest unemployment in Western Europe; strikes; power cuts; inflation; 15% interest rates; dismal productivity; shoddy workmanship; pitiful product quality (Austin Allegro anyone?); terrible public services (10 weeks to get phone line installed); awful customer service. I could go on.

Besides the war debt there was the labour government and the unions, Margret came along and sorted that bunch of c*nts out ( I left school aged 15 and was a fully paid up branch attending union member for twenty years, an I`m telling you straight they were a bunch of self serving c*nts).

So lets look at where we are now shall we, a far faster growing economy than anywhere in the EU, not because of but in spite of the EU.
Over 90% of UK companies do no business with the EU but trade world wide on price and quality, unemployment is far higher and living standards far lower than the UK in your exalted EU.

 

[mcfc1632]

If we leave all UK expat pensioners in Europe will have their pensions frozen until individual deals can be made with each and every European country.

If we leave E111 cards will be worthless until such time as individual agreements can be made with each and every european countries.

That's my 2 cents with respect to the outers.

Well actually that is clearly untrue.

The regulations are that all will remain the same for 2 years whilst discussion take place - that provides time for agreements to be made. As one example - I have a place in Cyprus and know the country (and some senior government people) very well. They would not hesitate to do a deal with the UK (obviously only in my 'informed' opinion) - they certainly would not wish to impact the positive contribution that the UK expats and tourists bring to the country.

I am certain about Cyprus - but suspect that Spain and Portugal etc. would be exactly the same.

 

[whp.blue]

you are presuming there won't be a fix! :-)

Tbf Whilst I am not normally a conspiricy theorist that has actually crossed my mind. I was told today that they do open postal votes when they come in and not on the day of the vote so you never know!

 

[Bodicoteblue]

Stood next to you i am bona fide genius.
Your next post is an excellent example of how cockwomble stupid you are.



Labour GAINED votes.
They had a greater positive swing of votes than the tories. 1.5% to 0.8%.
Labour accumulated more than twice the votes of ukip.
You are probably talking about seats, in a system that is monumentally idiotic.

And to illustrate how stupid the system is - that 0.8% swing the Tories got (half of the percentage swing to labour) turned them from a minority member of a coalition into a 12 seat majority government, and was widely applauded by tories as a ringing endorsement of their policies.