EU referendum

[Monkfish]

]

Thanks for posting mate....I watched the complete show and even tho I'm in the "stay" camp, I do agree he did a very good job and came across very confident in the interview....the problem for me is that he didnt actually answer any of the issues/concerns about leaving and in fact he confirmed to the country that leaving is just one big "unknown"....all he showed me was that he makes an excellent public speaker....sadly, there was no meat in what he was saying and gave no peace of mind about leaving.....I think this vote will just come down to personal situation....if you work in manufacturing for example you are going to have alot bigger concerns than someone that doesnt......Whether we like it or not some people are going to be hit harder than others if we leave and thats the sad part about this......Micheal Gove is going to have a very well paid job either way.....its not him taking the risk, its the people on the street.....

Yep the owner of the company I work for is a prominent out campaigner, says it's a risk but we should take it, of course it's not a risk for him or his family as they are made for life, but some of the people Gove is trying to convince to vote leave may lose their job, their home, their family as a result, wonder how a vote leaver would feel if that was the outcome, Turkey's voting for Christmas?

 

[Monkfish]

Don't post videos, say something about what you think

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

]

Yep the owner of the company I work for is a prominent out campaigner, says it's a risk but we should take it, of course it's not a risk for him or his family as they are made for life, but some of the people Gove is trying to convince to vote leave may lose their job, their home, their family as a result, wonder how a vote leaver would feel if that was the outcome, Turkey's voting for Christmas?

Important points mate....and agree completely...thanks!

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

A few more brexit myths busted, this time by the London school of economics.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-public-services-research-finds-a7026796.html

The independent is further left than the Guardian nowadays, their reporting and editorials are even worse.

Wouldn't trust them the present anything fairly.

 

[Pino]

Don't post videos, say something about what you think

Not a "risk" - a responsibility.

 

[Pino]

Don't post videos, say something about what you think

62 families – about 550 people – call the worldwide wealth shots, and the majority are American. The average EU bureaucrat’s pension is 60 times that of the average EU citizen. The 1% who own half the world’s capital are driving 85% of the Referendum narrative and suggesting Brexit is a risk. The EU and the US are rapidly morphing into corporate States that exist for the 1%. If you want to be part of a wedding between them, vote Remain. If you want a return to freedom and equality, vote Brexit.

 

[Pino]

European Union Declares War on Internet Free Speech.

• Some Members of the European Parliament have characterized the EU's code of online conduct -- which requires "offensive" material to be removed from the Internet within 24 hours -- as "Orwellian."

• "By deciding that 'xenophobic' comment in reaction to the crisis is also 'racist,' Facebook has made the view of the majority of the European people... into 'racist' views, and so is condemning the majority of Europeans as 'racist.'" — Douglas Murray.

• In January 2013, Facebook suspended the account of Khaled Abu Toameh after he wrote about corruption in the Palestinian Authority. The account was reopened 24 hours later, but with the two posts deleted and no explanation.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8189/social-media-censorship

 

[mcfc1632]

You mean the one who said he was in-ish and the one who said she was definitely out?

You have amply demonstrated to this board that, on this topic, you are just a WUM (which would at least mean that you are intentional) or an utter KFA - either way not worth debating/discussing anything with.

That comment just reinforces that view - either you did not watch - you have a poor memory - or (perhaps more likely) just someone that 'manipulates' the facts for their own agenda.

For those posters that did not see it live, directly following Gove's performance Adam Boulton's show featured:

1/ A review of highlights - incredibly edited to make Faisal Islam look 'robust' and Gove to be on the back foot, followed by:

2/ An extensive 1-1 discussion with a Labour MP and staunch supporter of the Remain campaign - who was given 'free reign' to pour out all sorts of attacks on Gove - not at all reflecting the interview/Q&A - this is what I said in my post and which therefore clearly demonstrates that you are again either up or talking out of your arse. She was not at all challenged by Boulton, followed by:

3/ A chat with Priti Patel - a Leave campaigner - which was more and argument with Boulton being 'full-on' in trying to rubbish the Gove/Leave positions and then the part you refer to:

4/ A joint interview with Lionel Barber - the 'in-ish' person you refer to - FFS the Editor, of the Financial Times - yeah really impartial him and Isabel Oakeshott a political commentator.

 

[BigJoe#1]

People who are looking for a fixed plan about how we'll manage when we leave, should we vote to leave are looking for answers that just do not and can not exist. All the Brexit campaigners can do is reflect on where we are, consider options going forward but they cannot give the solid cast iron plans that are demanded.

The two primary reasons for this are:

1. No one has ever done anything like this on this scale so are are no precedents to follow. All they can do is speculate. Such speculation is extremely tenuous because there will be huge, massive impacts in fact on the rest of Europe and to forecast how the interaction will work after that is unwise. All we do know is that we have the fifth biggest evening, the rest if Europe are desperate for us to remain in order that we prop them up... and we are going to prop them up. Maybe not directly but we will. I appreciate Kate Remainers will say this is not the case but let me assure you it is 100%, Cameron called this referendum and it's his responsibility to deal with the result - either way.


2. The people who are running the Brexit campaign are not the Government and as such have no mandate to say how we will go forward. That is the responsibility of Cameron and true to form he is being totally irresponsible in office. For as long as he is PM it is his responsibility to lead us forward, no one else can. An example if this was when to Brexit campaign suggested they would use a points based system to control immigration. They were lambasted in the press for writing an election maifesto.

All the leave campaign can do is point out the deficiencies, weaknesses and perceived ambitions of the EU and leave it up to us whether or not we want to stick with what we have or whether we think we can improve our lifestyles outside it.

In summary, I think yet again, Cameron has let the country down badly!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

It was an illegal vote involving foreign MPs

And it was before Somalia was part of the EU!

 

[BigJoe#1]

Interesting that the media have gone with the everyone will lose their jobs angle. Iirc, gove was quite clear that although you can't guarantee any jobs (same for staying in), the only definite job losses caused by brexit would be in the European Commission.
Seems to have been spun rather differently.

Yeah interesting spin.

I'd like to if the remainers can guarantee jobs if we remain in, then visit, BHS, Port Talbot, HSBC or British Gas and tell it to them. I don't expect them to pledge we can save all these jobs, the same as it is stupid to expect the Leavers to guarantee jobs if we leave.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I'm not sure how they were biased - you need to remember that the most likely option of political and fiscal integration is what many people in the eu want - they would read that option as the logical and correct way forward and from an economic point of view they are correct you cannot have a currency union without fiscal integration - we have all seen for ourselves the outcome of this -

The political issue will be the tricky one for the eu to pull off, but again there needs to be a political will to implement the structures required to make it work - Whether ones perceives the UK's requirements to absorb the necessary adjustments that they will be subjected to will be one person's utopia and another person's hell.. I was just trying to lay out the mechanics of what is most likely to happen should that event occur. If your a uk federalist that should read as pure porn ;-)

Yours was a helpful post. I'm
Involved a bit in scenario planning at work and the choice of scenarios (and sometimes weighting) inflience the decision make process to an extent. That what I meant by bias. For example. Our oil companies investments in Russia gave scenario planning added prominance but I'm not sure BP and Co fully understood the risks from Russian state intervention.

You may well be the right about the Eurozone and it will come down to what Germany and France want. The extent to which developments in the Eurozone will affect us remain to be seen. For example, I would imagine that as a Country we have made money from loans to Ireland to help the Irish over recent years.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Gove is lucky, it's easier to come across better when the interviewer is an arse

Gove has never come across better in any interview I've seen!!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Yeah interesting spin.

I'd like to if the remainers can guarantee jobs if we remain in, then visit, BHS, Port Talbot, HSBC or British Gas and tell it to them. I don't expect them to pledge we can save all these jobs, the same as it is stupid to expect the Leavers to guarantee jobs if we leave.

I didn't have you down as a Communist BigJoe!

 

[BigJoe#1]

I didn't have you down as a Communist BigJoe!

Lol I'm not Tim, but don't you agree it's stupid to ask anyone to guarantee anything? Pretty daft question and I thought Gove dealt with it very well.

 

[roj]

Brexit is such a shit word, I'd never vote for it. On the other hand, put 's' on the end of remain and you have a more accurate descriptor of the other choice.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

What if we had a 80% turn out and it finished 51% to 49% either way would there be a push for another vote?

There will be not turning back if we vote leave! I can see a legal challenge from the Brexiters if the vote is so close that ex pats would have tipped the balance to remain!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

62 families – about 550 people – call the worldwide wealth shots, and the majority are American. The average EU bureaucrat’s pension is 60 times that of the average EU citizen. The 1% who own half the world’s capital are driving 85% of the Referendum narrative and suggesting Brexit is a risk. The EU and the US are rapidly morphing into corporate States that exist for the 1%. If you want to be part of a wedding between them, vote Remain. If you want a return to freedom and equality, vote Brexit.

Can you please post your evidence about your pension claim. It sounds more like FIFA than the EU!

 

[mcfc1632]

Thanks for posting mate....I watched the complete show and even tho I'm in the "stay" camp, I do agree he did a very good job and came across very confident in the interview....the problem for me is that he didnt actually answer any of the issues/concerns about leaving and in fact he confirmed to the country that leaving is just one big "unknown"....all he showed me was that he makes an excellent public speaker....sadly, there was no meat in what he was saying and gave no peace of mind about leaving.....I think this vote will just come down to personal situation....if you work in manufacturing for example you are going to have alot bigger concerns than someone that doesnt......Whether we like it or not some people are going to be hit harder than others if we leave and thats the sad part about this......Micheal Gove is going to have a very well paid job either way.....its not him taking the risk, its the people on the street.....

I agree with you - as I say if you are a remain voter you are not going to change your position based on that interview. In fact if you are a committed remain voter then it can fuel existing concerns. From his (and the leave campaign) POV I would suggest that they are likely very pleased following that session, because:

A) he got through pretty much 'unscathed' - unlike Cameron the night before - Faisal Islam was reduced to getting testy and attempting to get personal - and failing

B) For the genuine 'fence-sitters' there were some more moderate/campaign messages emerging about taking back control - trusting in the people etc. Of course these be slated as empty of substance by the Remainers' but that does not matter and most importantly,

C) he likely won some voters over

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Lol I'm not Tim, but don't you agree it's stupid to ask anyone to guarantee anything? Pretty daft question and I thought Gove dealt with it very well.

Haha! Yes it's very difficult to have any guarantees.

Whether the Country votes in or out, I would like more reassurance from the two camps that we will get serious about growing our own workforces and be less reliant on migrants. Talk of a points system for EU workers is really a sign of failure.

Target International Aid on places / people that really need it rather than the current scatter gun approach.

Clamp down on tax evasion in a meaningful way. Rather than have Inland Revenue staff seconded in from the big Accountancy / Consultancy firms who are friends of the very rich.

Rebuild the confidence of our public sector workforce rather than eg having contracts imposed on health workers and hanging all coppers to dry for Plebgate and Hillsborough (when it's a few rotten apples).

Build a transport infrastructure we can all be proud of, rather than the vast majority of the investment going on the South East.

Get serious about expanding affordable housing availability rather than gimmicks that just push up prices