EU referendum

[yep]

The UK's net Eu payments have been the equivalent of subsidising Spain and Portugal for the last few years.
The sum – which converts to £25 BILLION - reveals that the UK contributes nearly one fifth of the EU's overall net budget even after receiving a rebate on our bill from Brussels. Just three EU member states - Britain, France and Germany - account for an astonishing two-thirds of the entire net income of the EU, with only 10 of the 28 paying in more than they take out. Latest ONS figures for 2015 (£9.9 billion) suggest we are now the 2nd largest contributor.
Any wonder they do not want us to leave!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-Britain-UK-net-contribution-Brussels-Cameron

 

[CitizenTID]

The UK's net Eu payments have been the equivalent of subsidising Spain and Portugal for the last few years.
The sum – which converts to £25 BILLION - reveals that the UK contributes nearly one fifth of the EU's overall net budget even after receiving a rebate on our bill from Brussels. Just three EU member states - Britain, France and Germany - account for an astonishing two-thirds of the entire net income of the EU, with only 10 of the 28 paying in more than they take out. Latest ONS figures for 2015 (£9.9 billion) suggest we are now the 2nd largest contributor.
Any wonder they do not want us to leave!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-Britain-UK-net-contribution-Brussels-Cameron

My instinctive stance is to vote out so we can sort out our own problems on our own and build a strong economy again not as reliant on others (or is this wishful thinking?). The map you show there makes me edge closer to voting in because from a moral point of view, it makes more sense for everyone to support each other so that a large population (e.g. Greece) aren't left in the shit because of poor decisions of their people in power.

Obviously the EU is a power beacon to be abused, but is that not the nature of most humans who find themselves with the opportunity? What countries are run by people that truly care about the welfare of their people as much as their own? If we vote out, we reduce that power but it's a bit like leaving other populations behind in even more of a mess.

I haven't spent too long considering the points of voting in or out yet but every positive seems to be at the expense of something else.

 

[Monkfish]

Agree this referendum is bad and we will be divided after as well as before despite the result, I am voting out but I wish we were not voting as it has caused to much division now, but the horse as bolted....

wait for the fun of the UK breaking up, Scotland first, possibly Wales then the big one, London to leave the UK because of too many unskilled immigrants from the North who can't even speak the language properly

 

[blueonblue]

Also we have no obligation to bail out failed Euro zone countries - we are out of that already.

What like we were with Greece you mean.


The European commission has defied George Osborne, the UK chancellor, by formally proposing an emergency loan for Greece through an EU-wide bailout fund using up to £850m of British contributions.

The proposed use of the European Financial Stability Mechanism fund is a blow to the UK, because David Cameron thought he had secured in 2010 a “black and white” British opt-out from participating in any further bailouts for eurozone countries.

In the 2015 Conservative manifesto, the prime minister claimed: “We took Britain out of eurozone bailouts – the first ever return of powers from Brussels.”

However, with Greece needing an emergency cash lifeline of €7bn by Monday, the European commission has concluded this is the best way of avoiding a catastrophic banking collapse in the country.


Note the Black and White British opt-out, and how it was ignored.

 

[Monkfish]

What like we were with Greece you mean.


The European commission has defied George Osborne, the UK chancellor, by formally proposing an emergency loan for Greece through an EU-wide bailout fund using up to £850m of British contributions.

The proposed use of the European Financial Stability Mechanism fund is a blow to the UK, because David Cameron thought he had secured in 2010 a “black and white” British opt-out from participating in any further bailouts for eurozone countries.

In the 2015 Conservative manifesto, the prime minister claimed: “We took Britain out of eurozone bailouts – the first ever return of powers from Brussels.”

However, with Greece needing an emergency cash lifeline of €7bn by Monday, the European commission has concluded this is the best way of avoiding a catastrophic banking collapse in the country.


Note the Black and White British opt-out, and how it was ignored.

The claim: The Vote Leave campaign is claiming that "UK taxpayers will keep paying for the huge bills caused by the euro crisis" and that "these bills will only increase".

Reality Check verdict: The UK will not pay for future eurozone bailouts. This has already been agreed by EU leaders. In addition, the UK-EU deal from February, which will be implemented if the UK votes to stay in the EU, reinforces this and states that the UK would be reimbursed if the general EU budget is used for the cost of the eurozone crisis.

Black and White sweet cheeks!

 

[yep]

My instinctive stance is to vote out so we can sort out our own problems on our own and build a strong economy again not as reliant on others (or is this wishful thinking?). The map you show there makes me edge closer to voting in because from a moral point of view, it makes more sense for everyone to support each other so that a large population (e.g. Greece) aren't left in the shit because of poor decisions of their people in power.

Obviously the EU is a power beacon to be abused, but is that not the nature of most humans who find themselves with the opportunity? What countries are run by people that truly care about the welfare of their people as much as their own? If we vote out, we reduce that power but it's a bit like leaving other populations behind in even more of a mess.

I haven't spent too long considering the points of voting in or out yet but every positive seems to be at the expense of something else.

Please tell me what road you live on as I'm sure that you and 9 neighbours are supporting 18 neighbours in your road. No, well what a surprise! That is not the same as everyone supporting each other!

 

[yep]

The claim: The Vote Leave campaign is claiming that "UK taxpayers will keep paying for the huge bills caused by the euro crisis" and that "these bills will only increase".

Reality Check verdict: The UK will not pay for future eurozone bailouts. This has already been agreed by EU leaders. In addition, the UK-EU deal from February, which will be implemented if the UK votes to stay in the EU, reinforces this and states that the UK would be reimbursed if the general EU budget is used for the cost of the eurozone crisis.

Black and White sweet cheeks!

Unless of course the IMF is involved of which the UK is a contributor. I'm told Christine Lagarde is often seen in Europe!

 

[CitizenTID]

Please tell me what road you live on as I'm sure that you and 9 neighbours are supporting 18 neighbours in your road. No, well what a surprise! That is not the same as everyone supporting each other!

I realise your trying to simplify it but that's not really comparable is it. There's a few additional factors in providing for a country than a household.

 

[yep]

I realise your trying to simplify it but that's not really comparable is it. There's a few additional factors in providing for a country than a household.

It ain't everybody helping each other either.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

What like we were with Greece you mean.


The European commission has defied George Osborne, the UK chancellor, by formally proposing an emergency loan for Greece through an EU-wide bailout fund using up to £850m of British contributions.

The proposed use of the European Financial Stability Mechanism fund is a blow to the UK, because David Cameron thought he had secured in 2010 a “black and white” British opt-out from participating in any further bailouts for eurozone countries.

In the 2015 Conservative manifesto, the prime minister claimed: “We took Britain out of eurozone bailouts – the first ever return of powers from Brussels.”

However, with Greece needing an emergency cash lifeline of €7bn by Monday, the European commission has concluded this is the best way of avoiding a catastrophic banking collapse in the country.


Note the Black and White British opt-out, and how it was ignored.

SImply wrong. Osborne agreed to allow the use of UK funds on basis we got a guarantee that our cash was safe i.e. underwritten by the EU. Brexiters use this as an example of the EU acting without our consent however a deal was done and there was no defiance, to suggest otherwise is a lie.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Good post - there will be people actually voting in this that will not even know what the letters eu stand for which is quite scary

I agree with that mate. Entirely agree. I've seen people interviewed about this and honestly I'd rather let their cat vote.

The future prosperity of millions of people is hanging on the whim of a bunch of people who haven't the faintest clue which way to vote nor why.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Cameron has made a speech today outlining 6 common lies of the Brexit campaign – all are commonly quoted as fact on here:

That the UK is liable for future eurozone bailouts. Cameron says his EU renegotiation means Britain is categorically not liable.
That Britain’s EU rebate is at risk. Cameron says the British prime minister has a veto on changes to the rebate.
That Britain has given up its ability to veto EU treaties. The prime minister says there is nothing in the EU renegotiation that relinquishes the UK’s veto.
That Britain cannot stop overall EU spending from going up. Cameron says the EU budget is set in stone until 2020 and can only be changed with the consent of all countries.
That the UK is powerless to stop itself becoming part of an EU army. He says Britain has a “rock solid veto” on EU foreign and defence policy.
That leaving the EU would save Britain £8bn. He says this claim was debunked on Monday by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which said a Brexit would mean spending less on pubic services, or taxing more, or borrowing more.

 

[Malty]

Don't post what that liar Cameron has to say. He's full of it.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Agree this referendum is bad and we will be divided after as well as before despite the result, I am voting out but I wish we were not voting as it has caused to much division now, but the horse as bolted....

Interesting. You do accept that if it wasn't going to a referendum, there would be no chance of us leaving, right? So you'd be happy to accept staying in, rather than see the squabbling and in-fighting that the referendum has brought about?

 

[Chippy_boy]

Don't post what that liar Cameron has to say. He's full of it.

Thanks Malty for your deep political insight. Peston watch out.

 

[Chippy_boy]

IN : Remain in one of the worlds biggest trading blocks. All major institutions including the Bank Of England and IMF agree it's in our best economic interest to remain. The US and China would continue trade with the EU with Britain being a big player. We can move anywhere we want in the EU, with cheaper holidays and phone tariffs. The EU holds the peace of all European country's and remaining will keep our generation stronger and safer. Britain is able to keep its currency and sovereignty. With Britain out the EU, we may very well lose Scotland to there next independent referendum - so us leaving might not only break up Europe but also Britain. Leaving is a major leep into the unknown.

OUT : Laws are being passed from Brussels to Britain by un-elected officials - it is badly run and not democratic. We have no control of our borders - anyone in the EU is free to move here and high immigration puts a strain on our services, roads and healthcare. We are paying more into the EU then we get back and are bailing out falling country's. The EU is becoming more federalist with some arguing its main goal will be all country's under one flag, with one army and one currency. The EU has failed and Britain needs to leave before it collapses. Britain is a strong country with the 5th best economy in the world, why remain part of this undemocratic shambolic union when we can be a proud independent and stronger country.

Good post.

 

[smudgedj]

Cameron has made a speech today outlining 6 common lies of the Brexit campaign – all are commonly quoted as fact on here:

That the UK is liable for future eurozone bailouts. Cameron says his EU renegotiation means Britain is categorically not liable.
That Britain’s EU rebate is at risk. Cameron says the British prime minister has a veto on changes to the rebate.
That Britain has given up its ability to veto EU treaties. The prime minister says there is nothing in the EU renegotiation that relinquishes the UK’s veto.
That Britain cannot stop overall EU spending from going up. Cameron says the EU budget is set in stone until 2020 and can only be changed with the consent of all countries.
That the UK is powerless to stop itself becoming part of an EU army. He says Britain has a “rock solid veto” on EU foreign and defence policy.
That leaving the EU would save Britain £8bn. He says this claim was debunked on Monday by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which said a Brexit would mean spending less on pubic services, or taxing more, or borrowing more.

Did he give us any rational, honest or truthful reasons to remain in the EU?

 

[nellyonthewing]

My decision is influence by a view of what would I vote if we were not currently in the EU and this referendum was voting to join or stay out.
I'd be more likely to vote stay out knowing what we were OK at that point and seeing no gain in joining. Its only the uncertainty of leaving that's making people vote Remain.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Thanks mcfc1632

Gove is very experienced in the media and is Wiley enough to know how his comments could be perceived. His Government have done very little about home grown terrorism and have been bailed out by the security services repeatedly. It's ideas like Gove's and the 80 million Turks that are a bit desperate IMHO. They are also dangerous to our democracy.

The powerful points from people who wish to leave the EU include Johnny Tapia's about the impact on his school. These reflect real experiences.

Where you have a point is that in the absence of hard facts most of the better arguments on both sides of the debate have been exhausted. Occasionally, rumours such as the one about Parliament potentially blocking an exit from the single market give oxygen to the debate!

I think to call Parliaments consideration about locking an exit a rumour is a bit far fetched.

Unfortunately, it is my local MP Stephen Kinnock who is behind this I'm ashamed to say. It isn't a rumour it's a bit stronger than that, it is a fact that this is being considered. I agree it adds oxygen to the debate and it would be far better if these things weren't floated until after the result is known!

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Interesting. You do accept that if it wasn't going to a referendum, there would be no chance of us leaving, right? So you'd be happy to accept staying in, rather than see the squabbling and in-fighting that the referendum has brought about?

No if you ask me to vote on a referendum which I am doing then for the reasons I have stated which are mainly about democracy and sovereignty I would vote out, however I think the undecideds will vote in as tend to want the status quo so in will win but it will be close

However I think the scaremongering on both sides is utter shite and whether we are in or out the country will continue to prosper. The rubbish on the economy on both sides is nonsense frankly. In or out we will be fine.

What does concern me is that it has highlighted a split in the country and in the government and that is going to have an impact. I also think people have underestimated the economic instability of the eu.

How Cameron, gove borris and the government get back from this I do not know that's what has been a disappointment and will continue for a few years.

As the divide is so big it will rumble on whatever the result . Our relationship with the eu is now damaged because of the referendum and even if in win they know a lot of people don't want them. Thankfully it's not all been about immigration on here but again the global migration issue from poor countries to wealthy ones will go on ( and I don't have an answer).

So I think a referendum on this has been damaging to the country the government, the economy and our relationship with the eu, whatever the outcome.